I have a 7 year old border collie and a 6 years old border collie mix, both shelter dogs, both fixed, both potty trained. Suddenly they both decided to start peeing and pooping in the house. They do it when I'm gone to work, when I'm asleep, when I'm in the shower, pretty much anytime I'm not in the room to catch them. Its almost always in the same area, which happens to be the kitchen. Here's the kicker: when there's snow on the ground, they're perfect angels! As soon as the snow starts to melt off, they start doing it again. Its not seasonal, its specifically whether there's snow on the ground, on a day to day basis. I walk them, throw the ball in the yard, give them plenty of exercise, stimulation and attention. I've never crated them and refuse to start now but its been going on for a couple of years now and I'm at my wits end. I can't afford to move to Alaska. HELP!

First of all, be assured crating a dog is NOT a punishment. Canines (dogs, wolves, coyotes, etc.) like dens, their cozy place, where they can chill out and feel safe.

We have a good bunch of dog experts on this site. Today is Saturday, so I'm not sure when one or more will pop in. Please know that your question will receive good answers/suggestions, ones you can work with. Check back occasionally for replies from shaz or Aurora_Bell or Alty or Lucky (and others).

WG is so right, a crate is both a humane training tool and a dogs haven/cave/den. How long are the dogs on their own in the home when you are at work? I have 2 award winning dogs and crate the youngster when we are going to be gone for more than 2-4 hours. Anything else change in the home like a new person or other pet? When the snow melts does your yard get muddy and really wet? Some dogs develop quirks, had a female lab who would tip toe on wet grass until she could reach pavement and then walk normally, just quirky

Its about 9 hrs while I'm at work but I come home at lunch to let them out and it doesn't make any difference. They also do it when I'm home, and they can't live in a kennel 24/7. I've heard and tried all the usual stuff. I would really like some insight on the snow connection if anyone has any idea what that's about.

Kennel or crate, I know you said you don't have/want a crate but we have not talked about a kennel. " tried all the usual stuff" we never know what all that entails so be patient with us, we may repeat something your already tried. Dogs usually love snow, it's novel and they don't shovel it like us so its fun. Mud and wet surfaces can cause them to be cautious and less likey to hold it until they go outside. Outside may be unpleasant for them but I suspect its something other than mud. Nothing else new, right?

I know that my mix especially would be absolutely frantic if he was locked up. He was about to be put down at the shelter because he couldn't handle being in the kennel. Also I live in an apartment so a permanent kennel setup isn't really an option. Wet or dry outside doesn't make any difference... They LOVE the snow so I realize its probably just that the excitement makes them forget whatever it is that's making them do it but I don't know how to make that happen long-term. Food and water make no difference, exercise and attention make no difference, nothing has changed in their routine or surroundings, I've blocked off the area and they either go to great lengths to get past the barracade or just make a mess somewhere else.

Have they been checked by the veterinarian to rule out any medical issues?
Have you pinpointed either dog as causing the messes, or are you certain that it is both?

The only other thought I can come with at this moment is asking if any of your neighbors have made any changes. New pets in the building? Any new babies or children? Anyone they were used to being around moving out? Your schedule didn't change. No one stayed with you or moved out. They haven't been boarded or had someone else take care of them. It may be something that happened once and they have been upset ever since.

How long have had them and how long has this behavior been happening? This almost sounds like a form of separation anxiety. If so, you might contact a trainer in your area (your vet may be able to recommend a good one) to help you work with them. If that isn't an option, we can give you advice but it will not be a quick fix.

Are they getting enough stimulation in the house? Do they have any interactive toys such as treat balls?

Have you tried givning them 'jobs'? As you have probably found out by now, Border Collies are extremely intelligent and want to work. Teaching them to get things for you, giving them balls they can 'herd', etc. might give them other outlets for what seems to be stressing them.

What do you do when they make a mess? How do you respond?

No medical problems and yes its both. I've had them for 6 years and 4 years, respectively. I used to be able to take them to work with me. About 3 years ago I started a new job where I can't bring them anymore. At first the younger one, Rusty, acted out, chewed up shoes, etc. Then he adjusted (I thought) and everything was fine. Then 2 years ago I moved into my current apartment and still things were fine. It was several months later that the messes started. None of the changes corresponded at all to when the problem started and there haven't been any changes since then.
It would make sense that it was something that happened once that they never got over but I'm at a loss as to what. They've never been boarded, never been left with anyone but my parents and never for more than a few hours. They are very familiar with my parents and their house.
They have balls and toys galore, always bones to chew on, and they get a fresh rawhide "dental chip" very morning when I leave.
I've tried scolding them when I find the messes, ignoring them and giving them the silent treatment, praise and treats when they don't do it, rewarding them with extra fun-time outside... everything I could think of.
One thing I haven't tried is giving them jobs. They are both extremely intelligent. I guess I just don't know what to have them do... Ideas?

Cat may be onto something with the jobs.
Have you ever considered agility? With your vets approval of course, you'll want to make sure that they are physically up to it.
As you are totally apposed to crating them, a reputable trainer or behavioralist may be something that you want to check into.
Although my first suggestion would have been to retrain using a crate.
Your younger dog may react differently to a crate, given that he is now in a different environment.
Noisy, multiple caregivers, mistrust, limited attention V/S quieter, one caregiver, stable home, and plenty of attention.
You never know.

Oh my gosh I am seriously desperate here! I'm so frustrated I just want to cry. I'm honestly feeling like the only way to keep them out of that kitchen is to move out and eliminate it entirely. I finally get into a nice place and now this! Maybe it is something with that spot. They've never peed anywhere but there, knock on wood. They're just totally fixated on that spot. I feel so helpless!
Ok, now that I've gotten that out, yes I have considered agility, even long before this all began. I even built a ladder and some posts for the older one, Jake, before I got Rusty. Naturally, he looked at me like I was nuts and walked past it rather than through it. I will see if I can find a training course less than an hour's drive away. I live in a rural area so as of a few years ago that's how far the nearest place was.
I just wish I could break the obsession with that spot. Its like its been going so for long now that its totally ingrained in their heads. Did I mention how desperate I feel??

Petmom, may I offer a hug? We really do understand what you are going through. Hopefully we can figure this out.

What are you using to clean the area?

Are you on the ground floor? Is the area they prefer close to an outside wall? I am still wondering if it is something outside the apartment. They may be reacting to something that you can't see, smell or hear.

As for jobs, if they enjoy games like fetch, you can turn 'fetch' into clean-up. Have them pick up their toys and put them in a 'toy box'. You can teach them to get things for you such as a certain toy. My Dobie helps pick up trash and get things I've dropped. She is currently learning how to help me with laundry.

Thanks Cat, I appreciate the support and the advice! I've cleaned the area with bleach, ammonia, out! fantastic, dish soap, I think that covers it. One problem I have with cleaning it is that the floor is the fake hardwood stuff and has no finish so moisture (as in urine) can seep into the cracks and absorb into the material and I can't get it out. Also I know some has to have seeped underneath the cabinet under the sink but I can't get in there either.
I am on the ground floor but the problem area is right smack in the middle of the apartment, nowhere near any outside walls and not close to the walls between the neighboring apartments.
Also, I checked around for agility classes and found zilch but I ordered a starter kit with a few basic pieces to work with them at home. And on a happy note, no messes while I was at work today, which they were very excited to report. Rusty could hardly contain himself as he trotted through the problem spot to show me that it was all clear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by petmomof4

. And on a happy note, no messes while I was at work today, which they were very excited to report. Rusty could hardly contain himself as he trotted through the problem spot to show me that it was all clear.

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That sounds great. Just take it one day at a time. :)

It brings up a new question. How much attention do you give them when you leave? Are they getting worked up and relieving it the only way they know how?

When I leave I give them each a rawhide dental chip, a quick pet on the head and, this is the geeky part, tell them "love you, be good" on my way out the door. Very routine, nothing to get worked up about.

Just in case anyone is still following this... I've thought of a possible cause. There is a decrepit old beagle penned up down the street. He has been there since we moved in and sometimes barks/bays but not enough to be bothersome. Lately though I have seen another hound of some kind in that pen, and this one is much more vocal. I thought he was a new puppy but someone told me he's been around for a while. Anyway, this morning as I was laying in bed sick, I could hear the hound baying. My boys barked and whined a bit but then they seemed to lose interest. Next thing I know, I'm cleaning up a mess. The boys have showed much more interest in this dog than with the beagle, maybe because its younger, maybe it's the opposite gender from the beagle, maybe it's a matter of being fixed or not, who knows. I realize now that I have heard it sometimes but because I never saw the dog I thought it was coming from somewhere else, farther away. This could also possibly explain the snow issue if, say, they put the dog outside during the day when its nice out, but keep him inside when it snows. Maybe if I up the volume of white noise in my apartment it will drown him/her out?

Sorry you were home sick, but it does seem to have given you something to correlate the messes with. If as you say, the hound was indoors on snowy days and no messes occurred.
Then, in an odd way it does make sense. Hounds have a distinctively different tone and pitch.
That tone and pitch may have been upsetting to them somehow. Stranger things have happened.

Well we seemed to be doing better there for a few days but that's over now. We're back to at least once every day. Maybe they just gave me a break while I was deathly ill for a week. Maybe they were just happy that I was home all week. Today, no messes when I got home from work, I praised them and we played outside (despite practically hurricane-force winds!), then I went to bed with an ice pack because I had a bad headache. When I woke up, guess what. They even got a special treat and a new toy each yesterday for Jake's "re-birthday". If it is the neighbor dog, which I'm not sure of, but if it is, how do I get them to stop? Do I have to move away from this dog?