Warning---this post is a bit lengthy.

About two years ago, my aunt lost her job at a large international company. She had spent her entire career at this company, putting in nearly 30 years. Despite this she was let go, along with almost every other person in the company whose full retirement benefits were about to accrue. She is part of an unlawful termination class action suit currently pending against the company.

Here is the problem: This aunt is living with my parents, and has been since a few months after she lost her job. She invited herself (literally--she called my mother from the airport and said she was due to arrive in 5 hours for what my mother thought was a visit) to come live with them when her home went into foreclosure. My mother has always felt sorry for her sister, who wanted a husband and family for much of her life, but also wanted to climb the corporate ladder. My aunt made it pretty far within the company, but dedicated so much of her prime childbearing years to working that when she was finally willing to take having a family off the backburner, she found it very difficult to find an appropriate mate who wanted children in his 40s. She never did find the right one, and her window closed on having children.

Because of this, my mother feels especially guilty that she has a wonderful husband and children and my aunt, now ousted from the company she loved so much, has no one other than my mother. After enough weeks had passed that it was clear my aunt was not visiting but instead now living in my parents' home, my mother never asked her to leave (saying she "doesn't have the heart to do it.").

The issue is my aunt's lifestyle. As a single woman with a high-six-figure income, she was accustomed to many years of vacationing in expensive places, buying designer clothes, living in an exclusive gated community, driving a nice car, etc. She unfortunately did not save much of her money over the years. Obviously much of her lifestyle has been ratcheted down, but there are still things she insists are indispensable. Among these things are a membership to a yoga studio ($250 a month), top-of-the-line groceries (EVERYTHING organic, grass-fed and so on), and weekly trips to the salon. She constantly says "a woman must look and feel her best to be her best." My aunt tells my mother that she has gone without for so long because of the kids and now that we are grown and out of the house, my mother needs to "take better care of herself" and join her in these indulgences. The kicker is, my mother is not only "taking care of herself" now, but my aunt as well since my aunt is not working and has no savings left. Yes, there are TWO $250 a month yoga studio memberships, TWO sets of top-of-the-line groceries (I recently saw a receipt for $387 for what appeared to be about a week's worth of groceries and my jaw about dropped), TWO weekly trips to a pricey salon, and so on. This is not even counting the cell phone bill and other things they pay for on my aunt's behalf. My parents own a small business and while they are comfortable, they do NOT have the money to keep up the lifestyle my aunt has now brought into the house, especially since they are looking to retire in the next five years.

I think my mother is enjoying the feeling of indulging herself, as she and my father sacrificed a lot to provide for me and my three siblings. She also feels bad for my aunt. The combination of these two things has changed her for the worse (my mother had always been a frugal, pragmatic person). Two years ago, my mother would have balked at spending $3,000 a person for a week-long "cleansing retreat" at some fancy spa. Now, she has no problem booking such a trip for her and her sister, saying she is "worth it."

My father, meanwhile, is about to lose his mind. My aunt claims she will be moving out once her lawsuit wraps up and she gets her settlement money, but the lawsuit is dragging on. Her attorney says it could be five or more years before this thing plays out. My mother becomes extremely upset and defensive if my father tries to talk to her about asking my aunt to leave or curbing the spending. My dad demanded that she get a job and contribute, which she did--- she got a job working as an AT&T customer service operator, but quit after two weeks because it was "demeaning" and "draining her soul." My dad offered her a job at my parents' business, but she quit after a few days because she found working there to be "counterproductive". I don't know what she meant by that, but whatever.

Recently, my father came to me in exasperation and confided that my mother's spending has burned through their checking account, burned through their "rainy day" savings, and is about to begin dipping into their retirement fund. They simply cannot afford for this to go on much longer, but my father has no idea what to do. I certainly have no idea what to tell him. He has said that if this goes on for another year, he is going to withdraw half of the retirement money, and go live by himself. I know he does not want to--- he wants things to go back to the way they were. He loves my mother very much and just wants their old life back. Does anyone have any ideas on how to stop this train from running off the tracks? Can anyone explain why the heck my mother would work so hard for so many years only to blow it all right before she gets to the finish line? My mother isn't a stupid woman--- she is well aware that what she is doing is endangering her financial future. Help! Please. My family needs it.

You are right - that's lengthy. I can't decide exactly what your question is - this is a Q and
A site - but it appears to be a legal question as summed up in the title, "How to get rid of a guest."

The parties that own the property where the "guest" is staying get together and evict the guest according to State law.

Is that the question?

If the question is about your parents arguing about who spends what and where that is their problem, unfortunately, not your problem to solve. If neither one of them wants to take a drastic step (counselling, filing for divorce, closing joint accounts) there is nothing you can do. Again, it is between them You are, as painful as it is, a bystander. I think your father is very wrong to turn you into his confidant. I'm sure your mother likewise has a story.

I would not interfere in someone else's marriage, and that includes my parents' marriage.

If your parents are in desperate financial circumstances perhaps it is your turn to pay them back, particularly if (as you say) they sacrificed for you.

No one knows what your mother is thinking/feeling other than your mother. You've heard your father's side. Have you heard your mother's?

Yeah sorry it is so long, but I tried to include all of the background info that other people have asked me for--- I was told some things are hard to understand without the background info.

I must've jammed it all in there, but my questions were very last--- wondering about insights as to my mother's behavior. If anyone else has experienced something like this maybe they could shed a little light. The other question is, what the heck do I do? I'm not looking to interfere in anyone's marriage, but the reality is my parents are getting on in years and if they have no way to support themselves, it will be up to my siblings and I to do so, which we would have no problem with if the circumstances occurred as a matter of happenstance, but like this? Not only that, but my siblings and I are worried that my parents and aunt are a "package deal"-- and that means dealing with her extravagant spending. We all have our own families to raise and can't deal with that. If we can head it off at the pass now, it would be ideal.

Someone suggested that my siblings and I try to have my mother declared incompetent by the state and have a guardian declared for her assets. It's a possibility considering the drastic change in her personality/spending habits these last two years. She would be livid of course, but at least she and my father would not be destitute.

And to answer your last question, yes-- I have heard my mother's side. She says that she has been scrimping and saving her whole life and just wants to enjoy herself for once. That's the only explanation she will give.

What if your mother is totally competent and telling the truth - she's been scrimping and saving her whole life so her children could have better lives and now it's her turn.

Who told you that you and your siblings could have her declared incompetent?

Once again, this is your father's problem.

Your dad is not incompetent it sounds like he is doing what he has to giving your mom an ultimatum. He is at least being considerate to your mom leaving her half and I assume the house. As far as your mom's half of the money and competency she could get a bumper sticker saying I'm spending my kids inheritance -what Judge can argue with that. .

Not sure where you are located but in the US it is my understanding that laws were enacted many years ago making it illegal to fire someone who was about to become eligible for retirement benefits with a company. Employees are vested in systems after 5 or so years. If this were the case, she should be eligible for at minimum partial benefits from her employment when she reaches the required age.

Dad needs to take control of the finances. Take mom off the checking accounts and take her credit cards. Give her an allowance and make her come to him for any other expenses.

Other than that there is little he can do. And, if she fights that, it may cause problems. As for getting the aunt out, assuming both parents own they home, they would have to agree.

A side point here. You refer to an international company. But if she was employed in the US, I believe her retirement benefits would be subject to ERISA which requires benefits to accrue way before 30 years.

I'm going to disagree slightly, Scott. It's joint money at this point "Dad" wants to change that, pull out half, lock it away, that's one thing. He cannot dictate HIS decisions on how it is spent. Soooo - divide the money. Put "his half" in his name. Split the bills 50/50.

The thought that anyone would make a legal move to get someone declared incompetent chills me, absolutely chills me.

And the father thinks such a move will keep his marriage together? If he thinks he has no money now, wait until he's part of a move (of any sort) to declare his wife incompetent, she is not declared incompetent (perhaps careless, perhaps nothing) and she comes back at him with her divorce attorney's guns blazing. He can kiss her half and probably half of his half goodbye.

And any thought of children inheriting - out the window.

Years ago I worked in a law firm and a woman came in to write her Will. She had some money. Her Will provided for some small bequests. When asked she said she had scrimped and saved and sacrified and now it was her time to shine. Her husband hated to travel. She joined a single travel group and was busy discovering the World. Did anyone think she was incompetent? No. She was busy "spending down."

I'd also - as I said - leave parental problems to parents. Your father should not be making you his confidant. I don't want to hear about my parents' financial problems, bedroom problems, any other problems which are not my concern, even though "they" are my parents.

Maybe your mother stayed in this marriage for the children. Maybe she thinks the children should be more attentive. Maybe she regrets a life that could have been different.

Or maybe she told the truth - its her turn.

At any rate, incompetent? You (the OP) have no idea what a competency hearing will turn into no, no idea at all. I trust your father will be able to move in with you because I strongly suspect he will be put out of his house.

I think its best to remain calm and let your parents deal with things the way they have for years. Too many things you cannot know but as the children of good parents you do nothing but listen and support, and don't get involved.

I agree that it may not be legal for him to take control of the finances and if the wife goes to court over it, he'll probably lose. I still recommend doing it anyway. I don't know if the wife works, if not then with him being the sole provider, he might get away with it in a court.

And the advice to have her declared incompetent was ridiculous.

My siblings and I don't care about any inheritance--- we are all working professionals and whatever my parents earned in their lifetime is theirs. If they were in their 40s or 50s, we'd just let this play out-- they'd have a decade or so left in them to maybe get that money back. Two people in their late sixties, both planning on retiring within the next two to five years, but definitely not longer than that? The situation is now critical. So while my siblings and I would love to just go about our own lives and ignore what is going on, it's pretty hard to do when it's apparent WE will end up paying for our inaction. My father has expressed the same fear--- he does not want to be an unnecessary burden to any of us, and values his independence, which is why he and my mother worked so hard to make sure they could provide for themselves when the time came. Now it's all going up in smoke, for frivolous things.

Maybe it is that my mother has had enough of the scrimping and saving, but it was her choice to do so all these years, the same way I am now choosing to do so for my own children. I would not in a million years dream of using it as an excuse to bankrupt myself and my husband, and make my children sick with worry.

As for the guardianship issue, yes, it is a possibility, and no my father would not be bringing it--- my siblings and I would. The attorney we spoke to said that drastic changes in personality and detrimental behavior (such as suddenly and recklessly spending oneself into the poorhouse) are pretty fertile grounds for the success of a guardianship proceeding. The way I see it, even if we lose, maybe it will finally sink in how bad what she is doing really is. I have a feeling this is more about my aunt manipulating my mother into paying for the luxury items she wants than my mother suddenly wanting to enjoy herself more. My mother is her cash cow.

As for the ERISA issue, according to her former company, it is inapplicable because she and the others had employment contracts, the terms of which allowed them to let any of them go at any time. This is more or less their stance.

Scott, I think your advice may be our first step. My mother will be enraged at having to ask my father for money, but as she told us so many times over the years "If you want to act like a child, you will be treated like one."

Oh and, my mother does work with my father in their business. They have been partners in it all along, though all of the assets (the building that houses the business, their personal home, etc.) are in my father's name.

First, I don't think you and your siblings have legal standing to question her competency. That is up to your father. And, frankly, I don't think either of you have a chance of winning such a petition. The only result will be to further alienate your mother.

I still think the scenario I outlined is a good idea, though, I doubt if it would stand up to legal challenges.

Quote:

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As for the ERISA issue, according to her former company, it is inapplicable because she and the others had employment contracts, the terms of which allowed them to let any of them go at any time. This is more or less their stance.

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Terminating their contract is one thing. Terminating their retirement is another. Under ERISA as of 2006, a plan must be 100% vested after 3 years or 20% vested over the 2nd - 6th years. Prior to 2006, the length of time for vesting was longer, but the max was 10 years. If they took US tax deductions for the pension contributions, then they had to adhere to ERISA rules. Employment contract or not. So if she was with the company for close to 30 years, then she is fully vested in her pension benefit. So if she is telling you that they terminated her because her pension was due to accrue, then she may not be telling the truth.

This is your dad's call plain and simple and I would be talking to a lawyer to protect my assets and hard work. If that means splitting assets and letting mom spend her share fine, but restructuring the finances is an option he must explore.

Start by closing any joint accounts. That's the first thing I would do if I were your dad. I would hazard a guess that there are facts here we don't know, and maybe some agreements between the sisters that nobody knows.

The bottom line as I see it, is making sure that there is enough money between your parents, for them to provide for their own retirement.

You and your siblings do not wish to have the responsibility of providing for them

Declaring your mother incompetent, after you and your siblings have already seen a lawyer, chills my soul just as it has Judy's. It is a terrible, selfish, thing to do to anybody. You should research the consequences of this 'solution'. What an insult to your mother to have lived and provided for all her children, only to have them put her mental health competency in an open court, and defend herself to the likes of you and your siblings.

And, it is really about the money.

Please reconsider involving yourself in their business in any way, shape or form. Should your father keep providing the fuel to this selfish fire, try telling him simply that he is going to have to step up and deal with his sister in law directly, and his wife. It is NOT your problem, and you have the audacity to think it is.

Leave them all alone. Worry about your own future, and hope to God somebody doesn't put you in the same position as you are considering putting your mother in.

"As for the guardianship issue, yes, it is a possibility, and no my father would not be bringing it--- my siblings and I would. The attorney we spoke to said that drastic changes in personality and detrimental behavior (such as suddenly and recklessly spending oneself into the poorhouse) are pretty fertile grounds for the success of a guardianship proceeding. The way i see it, even if we lose, maybe it will finally sink in how bad what she is doing really is. I have a feeling this is more about my aunt manipulating my mother into paying for the luxury items she wants than my mother suddenly wanting to enjoy herself more. My mother is her cash cow."

My other concern is your over the top language - "cash cow"? "Spending oneself into the poorhouse"?

If you PAID this Attorney for the consultation (this was not some Attorney at a cocktail party, handing out advice so that he/she could go back to the party - and it happens to every professional), he reviewed the records and history and this was his/her advice, a Physician has backed up the change in behavior, stated it's part of a bigger problem, then I absolutely agree that it is possible to file to declare your mother incompetent, strip her of her rights, perhaps place her in a residence for similarly-impaired individuals.

I just don't think you are the person with the right to do that.

Of course, you appear determined to proceed (why you are asking here when you've already paid for legal advice and why this is under "friends and family" and not on a legal board is also beyond my understanding), and I would like to know the eventual Court outcome.

And, yes, I think it's all about the money. Yours, theirs, someone else's.