Well, never thought I'd be here asking this. I've known my wife for 13 years (since I was 18), and been married for 12 with two great kids (8 & 10 plus a 14 yr old stepdaughter I've raised since she was 1); she decided to leave 3 days before Christmas. There was no "event" to leave over (domestic violence, abuse, alcoholism/drug addiction, gambling, infidelity). We both work, and I work 8-5 M-F, while she worked 3pm-12am for a retail store. Once I got off from work I'd go home and take care of the children until they were ready for bed (cook dinner, all that stuff). So, she didn't have many domestic duties (no desperate housewife here) and was by herself most of the time before work at 3pm. According to my wife, she says she left because she "needs her own life" and since she's going to be 37 feels like her life is going nowhere. I don't understand this point. I work for a state university and we planned on working for a few years to pay off my student loan debts and then she could attend college for her subject of choice (practically for free since I'm faculty). She quit her job and moved in with her mother (4 hours away) while taking the three children with her. She has no means of obtaining gainful employment (minimum wage is all she's getting with her education & experience), and is relying completely off her mother and step-father. I don't understand this... why leave a husband who cooks 5 days a week and is willing to help you make it through school? I don't think she's likely to finish college raising three kids by herself, and her mother is unreliable and moves every 3-6 months and has for the past 13 years (no joke, I have often wondered if they are running from the law or creditors). The odds on her staying put for 4 years while she goes to school (she's dropped out several times because she gets burned-out) are really low and approach the astronomically small range...


So, while she was still at home I begged and pleaded for her to stay and try to work this out for us, the children, and for our economic security. Between the two of us we do just fine but her income is more supplemental and mine is the main income (50K between the two of us in a small, rural state which is pretty good for this area). I've been leaving her alone (no text message, email, or phone "terrorism" from me), and every once in a while she calls me... while it's typically business of some sort, I've noticed that she'll stay on the phone for a while and talk about general things; almost like she misses me but not quite sure what to make of it. This makes me wonder if she's serious about divorcing or just having a midlife crisis of some sort... and she says it's officially a separation. I miss my wife so much that I'd do almost anything to have her come back and reunite our family. I'd go to counseling, take a second job so she can stay home (she says she's burned out from working all the time) I thought we were just working a lot and trying to buy our home... ignored some of the signs that she was growing cold towards me... guess I should have seen it coming but since we worked the schedule we did I rarely saw her. She also had many friends at work who where 18-22 and have no children or spouses, and I've wondered if hanging out around these younger people left her feeling old and bored... any suggestions?

I'm guessing that somewhere in her mind, the must be more to this situation... as time goes on, she will most likely do one, of two things... she will decide to come back, or if she decides not to come back, be prepared for "all the things youve done wrong over the years" to come out of the wood work... if she is hanging out with younger single gals, its probably not a good sign... sometimes, listening to the younger girls carry on will remind someone a bit older of how great it was to be young... how great life was at that point... and sometimes, the women wants to feel that feeling again.. get a so to speak "high" in life once again... unfortunately, once you mature and grow older, have children and a family... this feeling never quite comes back the way you remember it to be... but that's something she is going to have to find out on her own... just as they say, the grass is not always greener on the other side...

I meant to add that...

The "all the things youve done wrong over the years" conversation is usually someone's way to justify in their own mind the reasons for leaving you... it kind of gives people anger to fuel their own fire and back themselves up on their reasons for leaving... did that make any sense at all? LOL

She needed a break so she took one, and you'll know later exactly why. That's why it does no good assuming, and presuming, until you have facts, and can make a decision.

The facts you do have are, she is gone, and not happy. Find out what's on her mind and what she wants to do, and what you need to do.

I would give her the space she needs right now though.

Sorry, but this is a slow painful process.

Time and space from her is going to give you guys both great perspective of what the two of you want. As for now, you need think about the children you have together

Read this book, things will make more sense.

Infidelity, Cheating Wives - Women's Infidelity

Even without the infidelity part, still gives you a darn good idea about what goes through women's heads and why they do what they do.

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Originally Posted by Dragonfly1234

Read this book, things will make more sense.

Infidelity, Cheating Wives - Women's Infidelity

Even without the infidelity part, still gives you a darn good idea about what goes through women's heads and why they do what they do.

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Thanks to all who responded. I read through what you recommended and I have to say it's almost a mirror image of what's going on with my wife's behavior. Coupled with working around young people who have no kids, spouses, or responsibilities for that matter, I can see how she just couldn't take it. Like the book states, my wife was the one who pushed for a commitment and marriage. I was a ripe 19 year old who was attending college and playing drums in a heavy metal band... not exactly the type who wanted marriage and a stepchild! Eventually I agreed to marry, and we had two children and I thought built a great life (I finished my master's degree two years ago and work ironically as a counselor at the local university). Then, this bomb gets dropped... I don't know if she's having an affair. It's possible, and there have been a few things that made me wonder but strangely enough I have been the one who initiated the disinterest in sex. I think it was primarily medication-induced, but she didn't like it and said it because of that she felt old and unattractive. I certainly didn't want my wife to feel that way, but given how angry she seemed to be at me I just figured I'd leave it well enough alone. I figured we were stable enough to work out our problems if they ever got serious enough to warrant a separation and/or potential divorce... boy was I wrong.

She wants me to visit the children, but I have to tell you I just don't feel up to being the sucker ex-dad. I've just seen it too many times. I love my family, and hope it stays together but it's extremely common for the old dad to get pushed to the curb once a new relationship begins. Not saying I won't ever see them, but I'm planning on enrolling into a Ph.D. program (psychology, of all things... that's what I originally wanted to do but took a job after my master's degree to support my family... now that they're gone I'm focusing on what I want to do) that is over 10 hours away... the reality is I won't get to see them much. I didn't want any of this, but I'm also not going to make it easier for her by catering to whatever she does. She wants to be a single parent, she gets to be single parent. Many might disagree with me, but once your children have essentially been stolen from you (naught but a few days before Christmas, might I add... it was the worst Christmas for everyone... she couldn't wait a few weeks? What gives?), with little justification or remorse... I just have to move on for now and focus on myself. She has little to look forward to really, a minimum-wage retail job and a high school education with three children. That to me is far more miserable and restrictive than having a family and husband who wants you to finish college. Instead of feeling trapped within our marriage, she's going to feel the pressure and stress of poverty with nothing to look forward to with three children who miss their dad. It's just illogical, in my view. Anyway, I'm always open to feedback.

As where the children are concerned, I think the best thing for them is to try and keep our family intact. Short of that, I just don't see how I can do anything to truly try and assuage the damage that divorce inflicts upon children. I hate divorce, and remember the pain as a child of my parents constantly marrying and divorcing both each other and other people. It makes a joke out of marriage. Wish they would take out the "till death do us part" because it's not true anymore, if it ever was.

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Originally Posted by Str8stack71

i meant to add that.....

the "all the things youve done wrong over the years" conversation is usually someones way to justify in their own mind the reasons for leaving you.... it kind of gives people anger to fuel their own fire and back themselves up on their reasons for leaving...... did that make any sense at all? LOL

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Yes, it does make sense. She's even told me that nothing is really bad, there's just not enough good to justify staying. I think she's headed for disaster with her fingers in her ears myself, as the poverty rates for single women with children are astronomically high, especially with a high school diploma and little work experience. :confused:

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Originally Posted by Romefalls19

Time and space from her is going to give you guys both great perspective of what the two of you want. As for now, you need think about the children you have together

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As where the children are concerned, it sucks because where they used to have a dad every day (heck, I cooked dinner five days a week) they now have no one. I'm likely going to move 10 hours away (and probably more after I'm done with my doctorate) and between that and my doctorate it's not likely there will be much of a relationship. Not trying to be difficult or a jerk, but I know how these things usually work out. Once the woman finds someone else, it typically results in the dad being demoted to a distant memory. She wanted me to watch them overnight so she could stay with a "friend" in a nearby town. While I'd love to see my children, I'm not going to be her babysitter for what could be a potential affair. I simply won't do it that way because it's insulting on many different levels.

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Originally Posted by greatbignow

Not trying to be difficult or a jerk, but I know how these things usually work out. Once the woman finds someone else, it typically results in the dad being demoted to a distant memory.

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That is usually only because he chose to be. All too often when there is a separation/divorce the parents resentment or each other hurts the children more than anyone else. If you don't want to become a "distant memory" in your children's lives then you have to take a proactive stand. MAKE time for them. Don't allow it to become a relationship only when it fits your schedule. Children aren't as unobservant as you might think. They will pick up on the fact that Dad won't come visit and that will lead o resentment. I applaud your working on your Phd. But I think the way you are handling the situation with your children is not the best course of action.

Even though you are going through many mixed emotions... please think carefully before distancing yourself from your children. This is difficult for them as well, as you have said you have memories of how terrible it was when you went through this as a child... learn from your parents mistakes when you were a child going through this same situation, and make great efforts to prevent your children from suffering in this situation. Don't act out of anger for your wife... act with love for your children... your still daddy... and nothing will ever change that as long as you handle this situation appropriately. Make wise decisions not ones that are fueled by anger or revenge.
I wish you the best.

I'm guessing she's deep in a midlife crisis.

When I was her age, my kids had just started school all day and I worked part-time. My husband was the primary breadwinner, and my paycheck covered Hallmark cards, eating out at fast-food places on weekends, and our weekly church contribution. I sat there and wondered, is this all there is?

I switched to contact lenses, got a cute haircut, and hung out with other women in the same boat I was in. We joined a bowling league. We had tea parties at each other's homes. When our husbands came home at night, they were tired and just wanted to sit and stare at the TV. Again I wondered, is this all there is?

I changed jobs and started to find myself working at a job I really liked and that brought out the best in me. A few years had gone by. I started grad school. I got a master's in counseling psych. I continued at that great job I had (and still have) and counseled in my spare time (and still do). It finally all came together. I pray it will for your wife too. Going on in school will be the best thing she can do for herself and for her future. Living the way she is now might just cause the facts of that to smack her in the face, and she will return home to you. If she does, sign up for family systems counseling.

I think you really need to sit down and ask yourself how you may have contributed to this. You have mentioned cooking dinner 5 days a week for your children, and have also said that you have initiated the lack of sexual relations with her. As the old saying goes, it doesn't matter how flat you make a pancake, it still has two sides. What was your role in this?

I see from your words that it is a point of contention with you, that she doesn't have the education that you have. You seem to focus a lot on the fact that she doesn't have the skills to get a well paying job. Did you perhaps let her know that you felt less of her because of her lack of formal education? I am getting that sense.

To say that the father is usually pushed to the side because of a new man, is presumptuous and a little pretentious. This is where people often use the children as an excuse to vilify the other parent. This is NO EXCUSE not to be in your children's lives, just as you had been before. Cooking dinner for your kids doesn't make you a Dad. Being there under the worst of circumstances makes you a Dad! Anyone can be a "father," but a "DAD" will put his own feelings aside to "ensure" that his children will know that he will be there for them, no matter what their mother does, or who their mother is with! That is entirely up to you, and it will entirely rest on your shoulders if your children start to call someone else "Daddy!"

I know that you are hurt, but you need to "man up" and do the right thing. You can't change how your wife behaves, but you can certainly change the way you handle this! Show your children that "Daddy" doesn't crumble and run away because Mommy has made a decision that you don't agree with. And for God sakes, please don't treat your step child differently than you do your bio children. Teach them all to hold their heads up high, no matter what circumstances or challenges they have to face in their young lives. That job was assigned to you when you had ALL of these children. This isn't just about you anymore. God blessed you with these kids. Don't disappoint them, because you are hurting because of their mothers decisions. Make your children your biggest success in life, and even though you don't agree with their mothers choices, showing their mother respect through the hurt, will silently speak more than words.

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Originally Posted by MarkwithaK

That is usually only because he chose to be. All too often when there is a separation/divorce the parents resentment or each other hurts the children more than anyone else. If you don't want to become a "distant memory" in your children's lives then you have to take a proactive stand. MAKE time for them. Don't allow it to become a relationship only when it fits your schedule. Children aren't as unobservant as you might think. They will pick up on the fact that Dad won't come visit and that will lead o resentment. I applaud your working on your Phd. but I think the way you are handling the situation with your children is not the best course of action.

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Point taken. However, they also realize that I didn't want any of this and it was a unilateral move. In fact, my son was also begging his mother to stay with me because divorce makes him "feel like barf." At some point I will see them but not right now; I'm going to D.C. for a week to take a group of students to the inauguration, and then I have to move. After that I'm visiting Texas A&M to see about their doctoral program in psych. She took them away and wouldn't let me see them for Christmas or New Year's, which really did hurt like hell. She's letting them stay with me at the end of the month so she can spend the night with her "friends." I'm not going to be her babysitter but I'll see my children once this calms down and I've moved.

Bottom line is that you have a decision to make... are you going to appropriately handle this situation or are you going to let the situation handle you?. don't let your emotions control you... you have to control them. Do what you need to do and what you know you should do... it doesn't matter if she is using you as a babysitter or not, those are your children... enjoy the time you get with them. Don't cut your nose off despite your face.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I'm guessing she's deep in a midlife crisis.

When I was her age, my kids had just started school all day and I worked part-time. My husband was the primary breadwinner, and my paycheck covered Hallmark cards, eating out at fast-food places on weekends, and our weekly church contribution. I sat there and wondered, is this all there is?

I switched to contact lenses, got a cute haircut, and hung out with other women in the same boat I was in. We joined a bowling league. We had tea parties at each other's homes. When our husbands came home at night, they were tired and just wanted to sit and stare at the TV. Again I wondered, is this all there is?

I changed jobs and started to find myself working at a job I really liked and that brought out the best in me. A few years had gone by. I started grad school. I got a master's in counseling psych. I continued at that great job I had (and still have) and counseled in my spare time (and still do). It finally all came together. I pray it will for your wife too. Going on in school will be the best thing she can do for herself and for her future. Living the way she is now might just cause the facts of that to smack her in the face, and she will return home to you. If she does, sign up for family systems counseling.

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Thanks for the feedback and experience. I understand feeling like "is that all there is?" but we had a plan... a good and reasonable plan that we both discussed and agreed upon. She is currently residing with her mother and step-father, who are extremely unstable. No exaggeration, these people move every 2-6 months and have consistently done this for the 13 years I've known them. When I asked her how she really expects them to commit for 4 years to supporting her, the children, and her schooling she got really quiet. I've always considered myself a logical person and a realistic person. That is how I managed to finish a master's degree with a family in tow while working. Her plan sounds fantastic and unrealistic (she's dropped out of school before because she was feeling overwhelmed and her mother moved... again, she's going into an unstable situation with little income and a high school education in the 48th poorest state), and I know her mother is not likely to stay in the same home or town for the entire year, let alone 4 years starting in August. I hope reality smacks her in the face because what she's doing reeks of rash foolishness. She's apparently OK with it, but it's only been 3 weeks and she quit her job as well... so, her mother and step-father are having to support her and the children. No doubt about it, they'll quickly tire of a 36 year-old mother of three who isn't working and left her husband for what appears to be trivial reasons. I hope she comes back soon, because if she isn't back by August then I'm moving away, quiting my job and starting a doctoral program. That will also buy some time and if I do become divorced my support will be minimal due to a lack of income. This might sound cold and calculating but if I give her 40% of my take-home pay I'll be living in grinding poverty with no end in sight. If I get my Ph.D. and move back to California (where I'm from), then I can triple my salary and actually make a living while also supporting my children. I just don't see living in a small rural town making the low 10% of my field's average salary, especially by myself. I don't want to date or marry another Arkansan either; I want someone with a similar background, education, and goals. Whenever our families get together for a holiday or children's function, it is soooo obvious we're from two different worlds. My father is a physician, my mother has two bachelor's degrees, my brother is finishing up his Ph.D. in molecular genetics, and my other brother taught music for Aspen High School, while no one in her family has even been to college. In fact, her father was downright angry when I received a full scholarship (a monthly living stipend, full tuition & fees, along with a book allowance... nice scholarship!) to attend graduate school because we moved 1.5 hours away. He would have been far happier had I been a lumberjack or something... we come from two different worlds, and it shows.


As for counseling, I've offered but she is not interested at this time. Maybe eventually she'll come around, but I don't think she's living in the real world right now. All she can see is that I'm the root of her problems and if she only leaves then everything will be better. I've also told her that she might want to consider personal counseling to deal with some of these issues regardless of whether we stay together, because if you don't deal with your issues you simply bring them to the next relationship and start the process all over. She's still saying that I'm the whole problem and she just needed to get away to make it better. I'm damn lonely at night, though. Maybe I need to find someone to hang out with or be "friends" with... she has the children and her mother for support. I'm by myself and have only this helpdesk for support... you guys/gals have been great, but it's just not the same as having a friend or lover to support you.

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Originally Posted by starbuck8

I think you really need to sit down and ask yourself how you may have contributed to this. You have mentioned cooking dinner 5 days a week for your children, and have also said that you have initiated the lack of sexual relations with her. As the old saying goes, it doesn't matter how flat you make a pancake, it still has two sides. What was your role in this?

I see from your words that it is a point of contention with you, that she doesn't have the education that you have. You seem to focus alot on the fact that she doesn't have the skills to get a well paying job. Did you perhaps let her know that you felt less of her because of her lack of formal education? I am getting that sense.

To say that the father is usually pushed to the side because of a new man, is presumptuous and a little pretentious. This is where people often use the children as an excuse to villify the other parent. This is NO EXCUSE not to be in your childrens lives, just as you had been before. Cooking dinner for your kids doesn't make you a Dad. Being there under the worst of circumstances makes you a Dad! Anyone can be a "father," but a "DAD" will put his own feelings aside to "ensure" that his children will know that he will be there for them, no matter what their mother does, or who their mother is with! That is entirely up to you, and it will entirely rest on your shoulders if your children start to call someone else "Daddy!"

I know that you are hurt, but you need to "man up" and do the right thing. You can't change how your wife behaves, but you can certainly change the way you handle this! Show your children that "Daddy" doesn't crumble and run away because Mommy has made a decision that you don't agree with. And for God sakes, please don't treat your step child differently than you do your bio children. Teach them all to hold their heads up high, no matter what circumstances or challenges they have to face in their young lives. That job was assigned to you when you had ALL of these children. This isn't just about you anymore. God blessed you with these kids. Don't disappoint them, because you are hurting because of their mothers decisions. Make your children your biggest success in life, and even though you don't agree with their mothers choices, showing their mother respect through the hurt, will silently speak more than words.

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Appreciate the honest feedback. What has been a point of contention is the fact that she never seems to complete any long-term goals. In some ways she's like her mother and will start things but never finish them. That happened when I first met her (she was living with her mother and attending college but dropped out because her mother moved and wouldn't watch her daughter), then for massage therapy school, and then for beauty school. She simply doesn't have what it takes to complete a program of study, in my opinion. I wanted to help her finish a degree so we could both work and make a decent living, and so nursing was an idea because she liked it before. However, she stated that she no longer wanted to do that, and considered middle-school education because the pay is decent and we'd have the same days off (I was thinking about summers in Europe, Christmas in the Gulf of Mexico, fun stuff). However, she didn't want to do it and said she wanted to stay at JCPenney's making minimum wage with little chance of promotion. It ticks me off because it takes two people to support a family these days and I felt like I was the only one trying both at home and at work. I felt like I was the only one willing to work for a better future for ourselves and our children.

"if you make the wrong things too important in life, then sometimes the important things go wrong"

I don't know anything about you, but it feels like you were already tired of this relationship with her being from a modest family and you pushing for education... maybe she noticed you felt this way, which made her unhappy about the whole thing.

Anyway, you're moving on but I think you're abandoning the children... you don't seem to be particularly worried about she taking them to a unstable household beyond the "it was her choice, now it's her problem" attitude. Again, I don't know about your life, but have you considered fighting for custody? I know it's hard to go through grad school with kids (hell, I am single, no kids and already have a hard time!), but the youngest is already eight and they are probably more able to care of themselves... plus, schools usually offer support for parenting students.

Wish you all the best.

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Originally Posted by ImTotallyLost

I don't know anything about you, but it feels like you were already tired of this relationship with her being from a modest family and you pushing for education... maybe she noticed you felt this way, which made her unhappy about the whole thing.

Anyway, you're moving on but I think you're abandoning the children... you don't seem to be particularly worried about she taking them to a unstable household beyond the "it was her choice, now it's her problem" attitude. Again, I don't know about your life, but have you considered fighting for custody? I know it's hard to go through grad school with kids (hell, I am single, no kids and already have a hard time!), but the youngest is already eight and they are probably more able to care of themselves... plus, schools usually offer support for parenting students.

Wish you all the best.

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Thanks for the feedback, I do appreciate it. I don't plan on abandoning my children, but I do want her to feel how difficult it is for single parents. Hopefully the reality will wake her up and we can try to keep our family intact. I'd be lying if I said there wasn't some resentment in this, because I am hurt and angry beyond belief. When I first met her, she was young, vibrant, beautiful, and seemed to want something out of life. I was attracted to that spirit as well, but apparently she just doesn't have that drive and ambition anymore. I know having kids and a spouse can kill your dreams, but we were making them happen... we actually made a decent income last year for the first time. That's also very frustrating. I feel like I've climbed Mt. Everest (going to undergrad and grad school with a family and working as well the entire time), only to stumble upon a pebble and fall all the way back down.

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Originally Posted by ImTotallyLost

I don't know anything about you, but it feels like you were already tired of this relationship with her being from a modest family and you pushing for education... maybe she noticed you felt this way, which made her unhappy about the whole thing.

Anyway, you're moving on but I think you're abandoning the children... you don't seem to be particularly worried about she taking them to a unstable household beyond the "it was her choice, now it's her problem" attitude. Again, I don't know about your life, but have you considered fighting for custody? I know it's hard to go through grad school with kids (hell, I am single, no kids and already have a hard time!), but the youngest is already eight and they are probably more able to care of themselves... plus, schools usually offer support for parenting students.

Wish you all the best.

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One more thing; I was worried about the unstable household, and told her that the children needed to be back in school by January 5th. She told me that "You don't really want to open that can of worms" and that I needed to back off or I'd regret it. Since she is a custodial parent, I'm not sure there is much that can be done to prevent this. Also, if I fought and gained custody it would be too easy for her and she'd likely not come back. The harder her life is as a single parent, the more likely she'll wise up and we can attend counseling. That's just my opinion, of course.

Did you give any consideration to my last post? Why have you not gone for counselling, yet you've suggested that she should. You don't speak of your wife in a very positive light at all. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you talked to her the way you are talking about her and her family here, I can honestly say I can see why she took the kids and left you!

You focus an awful lot on "status!" Everything that you have mentioned, centers around education, money, and you... you... you! You haven't told us ANYTHING good about your wife! You haven't said if she a genuine person, a caring person, a wonderful mother, a great caretaker... etc. All we have heard is how uneducated she and her family are. Do you think it matters to us how successful your family has been, or all of the degrees that you all have? At the end of the day, none of that matters if you have such contempt for someone who has less of an education than you do. You really do make it sound like your wife and her family are beneath you!

You made references to lumberjacks and people from Arkansas in a very negative way. You better bow down and thank those lumberjacks for making it possible to have the paper to write out your 6 figure pay cheque, and you damn well better thank that "uneducated" Arkansas girl for bearing your children and mothering them!

Yes you do sound "cold and calculating," because that is the way you are being! You are doing this at the expense of your own CHILDREN! For that you should be ashamed! What are you teaching your children? You are teaching them that if you are angry with their mother, that they have to pay for it! 40% of your salary is the least you can do for them, because the morals you are teaching their young impressionable minds will linger.

I believe you need to take the focus off your wife leaving you, and focus on what you need to do to make yourself a better person. That is likely the only way she will come back. If she doesn't, well then deal with what is in front of you like a man. Stop villifying your wife and talking down upon her. She is the mother of your children. You picked her!

I'm sure you aren't going to like my words, and that is fine with me, but if you really want some help, you need to take a good look in the mirror first.

EDIT: This was written before I saw that you had quoted me and answered.

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Originally Posted by Str8stack71

im guessing that somewhere in her mind, the must be more to this situation.... as time goes on, she will most likely do one, of two things... she will decide to come back, or if she decides not to come back, be prepared for "all the things youve done wrong over the years" to come out of the wood work... if she is hanging out with younger single gals, its probably not a good sign... sometimes, listening to the younger girls carry on will remind someone a bit older of how great it was to be young... how great life was at that point... and sometimes, the women wants to feel that feeling again.. get a so to speak "high" in life once again

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I agree with most of the rest of what you said though!

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Originally Posted by greatbignow

One more thing; I was worried about the unstable household, and told her that the children needed to be back in school by January 5th. She told me that "You don't really want to open that can of worms" and that I needed to back off or I'd regret it. Since she is a custodial parent, I'm not sure there is much that can be done to prevent this. Also, if I fought and gained custody it would be too easy for her and she'd likely not come back. The harder her life is as a single parent, the more likely she'll wise up and we can attend counseling. That's just my opinion, of course.

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If the kids aren't in school when they should be, and she's the custodial parent, then report her for truancy.

In the US, kids have to be in school up to a certain age (which varies by state). This is LAW.

Honestly, though--it doesn't sound like you're making any effort at all to make your marriage work.

Good luck with your degree--hope it keeps you warm at night.

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Originally Posted by greatbignow

What has been a point of contention is the fact that she never seems to complete any long-term goals. In some ways she's like her mother and will start things but never finish them. That happened when I first met her (she was living with her mother and attending college but dropped out because her mother moved and wouldn't watch her daughter), then for massage therapy school, and then for beauty school. She simply doesn't have what it takes to complete a program of study, in my opinion. I wanted to help her finish a degree so we could both work and make a decent living, and so nursing was an idea because she liked it before. However, she stated that she no longer wanted to do that, and considered middle-school education because the pay is decent and we'd have the same days off (I was thinking about summers in Europe, Christmas in the Gulf of Mexico, fun stuff). However, she didn't want to do it and said she wanted to stay at JCPenney's making minimum wage with little chance of promotion. It ticks me off because it takes two people to support a family these days and I felt like I was the only one trying both at home and at work. I felt like I was the only one willing to work for a better future for ourselves and our children.

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GreatBig, After reading all your posts, I'm with Starbuck. And more, actually. You come across in your posts as profoundly selfish and arrogant.

I don't have the impression that you have been supportive of your wife or given her the chance to go through school. You lord it over her with your own education, which you apparently got while married to her, as she slaved away at low-end jobs, yet you appear not to have made room for Her to get any education.

By your own account, when you were together, you barely saw each other, and she hardly saw her children. What kind of life is that? What "plan" of yours justifies decisions like that? There's more to life than money. You imply there's another man, but present no evidence. You this her and constantly this her family. We understand that you feel angry, but this is more than anger. It's total lack of respect. And you talk about "babysitting" your own kids. It is physically impossible for a parent to be a babysitter. You are a parent, not a babysitter.

Why is she working 9-hour shifts at Penny's instead of taking classes toward a degree like you? In 12 years, there was never time for her to go back to school? In all that time, it's no surprise that she entertained a lot of different ideas of what she would do if she ever got the chance. In 12 years you got a BA and an MA and a bigger income. In 12 years, what has she got? Zip. And now you want to punish her for not sticking it out for even longer? I'm betting she spent all that free time before she had to go to work at 3 pm shopping for groceries and doing your laundry. I'm betting she's tired of taking care of your needs and being told what a zero she is.

And now you are quitting your job and going for MORE education? It sounds to me like you are competing with your siblings instead of focusing on your family. Forget the PhD. For now. Do it after your kids have your education or better. Doing it now is greedy and selfish, no matter how you rationalize it. (What good is your imagined bigger income and fanciful life in California going to do your kids after they are already grown up?) I think you are going back to school so you won't have to pay child support.

Keep your job and support your wife so she can go to school, finally, and care for her kids (if you won't). If you start cherishing her and treating her with reverence and respect, she MIGHT come back. But even if she doesn't, you should still put her through college.

You owe it to her.

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Originally Posted by starbuck8

Did you give any consideration to my last post? Why have you not gone for counselling, yet you've suggested that she should. You don't speak of your wife in a very positive light at all. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you talked to her the way you are talking about her and her family here, I can honestly say I can see why she took the kids and left you!

You focus an awful lot on "status!" Everything that you have mentioned, centers around education, money, and you...you...you! You haven't told us ANYTHING good about your wife! You haven't said if she a genuine person, a caring person, a wonderful mother, a great caretaker...etc. All we have heard is how uneducated she and her family are. Do you think it matters to us how successful your family has been, or all of the degrees that you all have? At the end of the day, none of that matters if you have such contempt for someone who has less of an education than you do. You really do make it sound like your wife and her family are beneath you!

You made references to lumberjacks and people from Arkansas in a very negative way. You better bow down and thank those lumberjacks for making it possible to have the paper to write out your 6 figure pay cheque, and you damn well better thank that "uneducated" Arkansas girl for bearing your children and mothering them!

Yes you do sound "cold and calculating," because that is the way you are being! You are doing this at the expense of your own CHILDREN! For that you should be ashamed! What are you teaching your children? You are teaching them that if you are angry with their mother, that they have to pay for it! 40% of your salary is the least you can do for them, because the morals you are teaching their young impressionable minds will linger.

I believe you need to take the focus off of your wife leaving you, and focus on what you need to do to make yourself a better person. That is likely the only way she will come back. If she doesn't, well then deal with what is in front of you like a man. Stop villifying your wife and talking down upon her. She is the mother of your children. You picked her!

I'm sure you aren't going to like my words, and that is fine with me, but if you really want some help, you need to take a good look in the mirror first.

EDIT: This was written before I saw that you had quoted me and answered.

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I appreciate your honesty, truly. I have been for counseling and was meeting with a psychologist for almost a year right before we moved here in October in 2007 (I was depressed and worried that I wouldn't be able to support my family after graduation... I found my current job and moved but the psychologist felt I had made some real progress and it was fine to end the sessions.). I've lived in Arkansas for years now, and though there are some positive aspects I can also understand why we're so far behind and one of the least progressive places in the U.S. (Mike Huckabee once referred to Arkansas as being like a third-world country, and I like the Huckster!). I guess it takes living here to understand the ironies.

I only wish I had a six-figure paycheck. That's part of the reason I'm resentful of the power structure here as well... no one wants to pay their employees... I'm in the bottom 10% for my field and education level and that is not likely to change in a state that had their school funding formula declared "unconstitutional & inadequate."

I did state why I was attracted to her initially. She was young, vibrant, beautiful, driving, and seemed to want something out of life. She was compassionate and loving, but over the past few years she's grown hateful and mean. I am sorry for being cold and calculating but I have to eat and I'd like to have good enough credit to buy a home eventually; she's ruined our finances. In fact, I can't even afford to keep our rental home and now have to move into a single bedroom apartment because she quit her job and left me with every bill we have (70K in total debt, and my income has been cut in half now). It ticks me off that I've worked so hard to provide for all of us and she threw it away due to emotional issues that I believe could have been worked out; she wouldn't go to counseling with me or anything, and I was quite willing! Six years of college and working full-time, and all I asked her was for a few months to get our finances in order. I begged her to stay at her job so that at least she could leave with some kind of order. As of now, our credit is going to be ruined because neither of us can pay the bills like we had been. My life is being ruined and I've worked extremely long and tedious to improve it. So yes, I'm extremely angry and hurt and feel there is nothing I can do. Of course I want to save my marriage, but how can I do that when she'll have nothing to do with me?

The 70K in loans obviously wasn't for a house, so is it your college loans?

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Originally Posted by Synnen

If the kids aren't in school when they should be, and she's the custodial parent, then report her for truancy.

In the US, kids have to be in school up to a certain age (which varies by state). This is LAW.

Honestly, though--it doesn't sound like you're making any effort at all to make your marriage work.

Good luck with your degree--hope it keeps you warm at night.

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What do you suggest I do to try and make it work? She left and rarely talks to me. When she does it's often not about anything other than business... every once in a while she talks about general things or emails little clues about what was going on in her head. I'm open to suggestions, people. That's why I'm here...

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Originally Posted by asking

The 70K in loans obviously wasn't for a house, so is it your college loans?

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56K in student loans. 15K in credit cards from before I started my job and we were both working full-time (my salary just didn't pay enough by itself; it took the two of us to make a living). I also have 9K on my vehicle but that's only in my name and I'm paying for it myself. Still the 15K is $450 a month, rent was $800 a month, car is $236, and student loans are $600; try paying that on $1,600 take-home pay... it doesn't work. That's part of why I'm so furious about this. She's ruined us financially by leaving and quit her job... it sounds really irresponsible to me. At least stick around for a few months and work but she just had to leave...

I just got whiplash, you just did a 180 on us.

Now you've been to counselling?

I find this a bit difficult to stomach. You're life is ruined? What about hers? What about the kids.

You honestly think that you've done nothing, but honey, it takes two to make a marriage work, and it takes two to destroy it. I don't believe that you're as innocent in all this as you are trying to lead us to believe.

She doesn't measure up to your expectations, we got that in just the few posts you've placed here, I'm sure she knows it too. I wouldn't be able to live with a man that thinks I'm not worthy of him because of my family and education.

How can you get her back? You can't, she either decides to give your marriage another shot, or she doesn't. It's out of your hands.

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Originally Posted by asking

GreatBig, After reading all your posts, I'm with Starbuck. And more, actually. You come across in your posts as profoundly selfish and arrogant.

I don't have the impression that you have been supportive of your wife or given her the chance to go through school. You lord it over her with your own education, which you apparently got while married to her, as she slaved away at low-end jobs, yet you appear not to have made room for Her to get any education.

By your own account, when you were together, you barely saw each other, and she hardly saw her children. What kind of life is that? What "plan" of yours justifies decisions like that? There's more to life than money. You imply there's another man, but present no evidence. You dis her and constantly dis her family. We understand that you feel angry, but this is more than anger. It's total lack of respect. And you talk about "babysitting" your own kids. It is physically impossible for a parent to be a babysitter. You are a parent, not a babysitter.

Why is she working 9-hour shifts at Penny's instead of taking classes toward a degree like you? In 12 years, there was never time for her to go back to school? In all that time, it's no surprise that she entertained a lot of different ideas of what she would do if she ever got the chance. In 12 years you got a BA and an MA and a bigger income. In 12 years, what has she got? Zip. And now you want to punish her for not sticking it out for even longer? I'm betting she spent all that free time before she had to go to work at 3 pm shopping for groceries and doing your laundry. I'm betting she's tired of taking care of your needs and being told what a zero she is.

And now you are quitting your job and going for MORE education? It sounds to me like you are competing with your siblings instead of focusing on your family. Forget the PhD. for now. Do it after your kids have your education or better. Doing it now is greedy and selfish, no matter how you rationalize it. (What good is your imagined bigger income and fanciful life in California going to do your kids after they are already grown up?) I think you are going back to school so you won't have to pay child support.

Keep your job and support your wife so she can go to school, finally, and care for her kids (if you won't). If you start cherishing her and treating her with reverence and respect, she MIGHT come back. But even if she doesn't, you should still put her through college.

You owe it to her.

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No, there was no way to put her through college with three children. It was physically impossible. Also, she wouldn't commit to any particular field of study so until she knew what she really wanted to do I didn't see any point in switching out and letting her go instead. No, she didn't slave away at a job while I was in school. I slaved away at a job (sometimes two) while I was in school. She stayed at home with the children. While both of us worked, I did the grocery shopping, and I took care of 90% of the domestic duties (to include laundry). She would hang out around the house on the phone talking to her friends for hours on end before going to work. Also, on her days off she'd go hang out with her friends while I had to stay at home and take care of the children; I never had a moment to myself. I was working more hours AND taking care of business at home, so please don't think she was a "desperate housewife." I'd have to use my lunch break to take care of any business (pay rent, pay bills, ect) because she was being too lazy and complained if I asked her to do much of anything, even though she didn't go into work until 3 p.m. It was OUR plan, not just mine. I told her I would support whatever field of study she chose. We both wanted to buy the house we (I) currently rent, and needed the two incomes to qualify for the mortgage. I figured we'd work for a year or so, pay down or off our debts, and then she could go (practically for free since I work there). It's only going to take another 3-4 years to finish my Ph.D. in psychology. If I wait until my children have a master's degree I'll be near retirement, so I really think that's unfair and not even very practical. In four years my children will be 12 and 14, and so yes my increased income WILL benefit them. If I wait until they have a master's, I'll wait 16 years at the minimum and be in my 50's. How can that be justified as opposed to finishing it up in a couple years? I have to respectfully disagree.

I do also agree that there is more to life than money, but when a state university system pays its professonals so little that their health insurance premiums cost 25% of the salary, and the salary is so low your family still qualifies for food stamps, it's difficult to justify your statement. Yes, there are more important things, but when you're paycheck is so small it doesn't cover basic living expenses there are few things as miserable as that.

Have the two of you gone to a FINANCIAL counselor?

It sounds like there are resentments on both sides, stemming for the lack of money and the WAY specific goals were being worked toward.

I know you say it was "OUR" plan---but I also know that sometimes I just get frustrated with my husband enough to let him call HIS plan "OUR" plan--even though I completely disagree with it, he's not hearing my disagreements as valid.

ASK her if she wants to save the marriage. If she does, then be willing to go further into debt to do so, because there's no way you're going to save it without the help of both a financial counselor and a marriage counselor.

PS--My sister put herself through college with FIVE kids. It CAN be done. You just don't get to work the jobs you WANT to work until it is done.

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Originally Posted by greatbignow

I slaved away at a job (sometimes two) while I was in school. She stayed at home with the children. While both of us worked, I did the grocery shopping, and I took care of 90% of the domestic duties (to include laundry). She would hang out around the house on the phone talking to her friends for hours on end before going to work. Also, on her days off she'd go hang out with her friends while I had to stay at home and take care of the children; I never had a moment to myself

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Did you ever tell her that you didn't like your lot in life? Did you ever say that you're doing everything and she's not pitching in? Did you two communicate, or did you hint at it, or just call her lazy, unmotivated etc. without telling her that you were frustrated.

Passive aggressive doesn't work, it usually just pushes people away. Perhaps you were being a bit too passive aggressive. Just a suggestion.

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Originally Posted by greatbignow

I miss my wife so much that I'd do almost anything to have her come back and reunite our family. I'd go to counseling, take a second job so she can stay home

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Than do it. Go to counselling - for yourself, not for her, and maybe take on that 2nd job - for yourself, not for her.

Nothing will be achieved through anger & bitterness. Help yourself & then maybe you can help her. It sounds like she has issues.

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Originally Posted by greatbignow

No, there was no way to put her through college with three children. It was physically impossible. Also, she wouldn't commit to any particular field of study so until she knew what she really wanted to do I didn't see any point in switching out and letting her go instead.

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I'm still not completely convinced, although glad to know you were doing housework. Good for you.

But you got through college with three children. Why should it be impossible for another person to do it? And as for not knowing what she wanted to major in before she went, lots of college students don't know when they first start. You figure it out as you go along. Some people know, but not everyone. I've know people who switched interests several times and ended up doing well.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

Have the two of you gone to a FINANCIAL counselor?

It sounds like there are resentments on both sides, stemming for the lack of money and the WAY specific goals were being worked toward.

I know you say it was "OUR" plan---but I also know that sometimes I just get frustrated with my husband enough to let him call HIS plan "OUR" plan--even though I completely disagree with it, he's not hearing my disagreements as valid.

ASK her if she wants to save the marriage. If she does, then be willing to go further into debt to do so, because there's no way you're going to save it without the help of both a financial counselor and a marriage counselor.

PS--My sister put herself through college with FIVE kids. It CAN be done. You just don't get to work the jobs you WANT to work until it is done.

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Thanks for everyone's feedback. I do like how this board is being honest and forthright, as persons (such as myself) in these situations can easily become mired in our own emotions/situations. Objectivity is the name... and I do appreciate it.

I've asked her about saving our marriage. She said she doesn't care enough anymore to try so I guess we'll just have to see. Like with any problem, admitting there is one and trying to be open-minded enough to see it (and see things from other perspectives) is the first step to solving any problem. I'm deeply hurt and angry. My wife was my best friend until recently; sorry if I sound arrogant but I haven't felt very respected either.

Look, it might sound to some like I'm merely trying to evade child support, but that is simply not true. The problem is that my income will be so low I will not be able to live on it; I'll be living in a cardboard box or travel trailer (are you willing to suffer on $900 a month after deductions? That's what I'd be left with! No one in their right mind would live like that... not in the U.S. and especially if their wife is carrying on with someone else eventually).

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Look, it might sound to some like I'm merely trying to evade child support, but that is simply not true. The problem is that my income will be so low I will not be able to live on it; I'll be living in a cardboard box or travel trailer (are you willing to suffer on $900 a month after deductions? That's what I'd be left with! No one in their right mind would live like that... not in the U.S. and especially if their wife is carrying on with someone else eventually).

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Child support is not an option, you're responsible to support the kids you helped bring into the world, even if it means living in a cardboard box. Sorry, reality check.

You asked if you should suffer? Well, should your kids? They didn't choose this, it's not their fault.

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Originally Posted by asking

I'm still not completely convinced, although glad to know you were doing housework. Good for you.

But you got through college with three children. Why should it be impossible for another person to do it? And as for not knowing what she wanted to major in before she went, lots of college students don't know when they first start out. You figure it out as you go along. Some people know, but not everyone. I've know people who switched interests several times and ended up doing well.

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I'm saying it would have been impossible for BOTH of us to go at the same time. If someone already knows what they want to do AND has a full academic scholarship to go, it makes more sense for that person to attend than the other who doesn't know what they want to do and has grades that are too low to qualify for financial aid (1.67 gpa when she last went).

I deal with at-risk students as a profession, and I can tell you that less than 10% of all single mothers who attend college ever complete. If you work in higher education you also know that some students have the drive to succeed while others simply don't. One has to have the tenacity and temerity to deal with everything life throws at them AND complete school. Single parents have it tough. In my opinion, after 13 years of experience with her, my wife doesn't have the drive to do this. For our children's sake (and her own), of course I hope I'm wrong but I wouldn't be doing this for a living if I didn't have the ability to "read" people and determine which students are likely to succeed and which ones aren't. Of course, I want all of them to succeed.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Child support is not an option, you're responsible to support the kids you helped bring into the world, even if it means living in a cardboard box. Sorry, reality check.

You asked if you should suffer? Well, should your kids? They didn't choose this, it's not their fault.

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No it's not their fault. Their mother made a hasty decision (quit her own job! She doesn't even have one now... how responsible is that?), and now I'm stuck taking up the slack to a woman who doesn't want to be around or even work on our relationship? Of course I'll support my children, but what I'm saying is the program I'm applying for pays a stipend that is just as much as my take-home pay. If I'm going to be poor and pay support, I might as well get a Ph.D. and yes my kids will benefit when I'm done in a few short years. They'll still be young enough to enjoy it and benefit.

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Originally Posted by greatbignow

the program I'm applying for pays a stipend that is just as much as my take-home pay. If I'm going to be poor and pay support, I might as well get a Ph.D. and yes my kids will benefit when I'm done in a few short years. They'll still be young enough to enjoy it and benefit.

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Plus, if you are back in school, you can defer paying off the college loans. Yes?