[coogiez]

now before I start, this is REALLY sketchy, the words are bland (and in some cases probably completely out of place), and I haven't put much care into putting much detailed answers into it apart from the obvious.

you can do what you want with it,
rip it apart, really, stick it in a shredder,
but first try and understand it, it made more sense to ME after I had read it a few times.

also, if you take this and make some kick-arse book or something that the wider public will read with open eyes,
give SOME recognition towards me, PWEEEEEZE ^.^

I know how strong a nuclear bomb is.

here it is:

Q: "If matter creates consciousness, how can consciousness manipulate matter?
How can consciousness that is created by matter turn around and move a material arm or leg?"
their understanding: "it would be like the clay manipulating the potter"


they (sadly) have made this answer without adequate understanding of the knowledge used.

now,
matter has slowly through the ages built consciousness,
i.e: the brain/mind through chance and need, the brain/mind has developed to cope with all these "new" things
i.e: the capability too make a sharp rock, and use it too split a watermelon,
which they now use regularly through out their lives.

the brain/mind sends SIGNALS, to say,
the heart too keep pumping, the legs too move and so on,
these signals are what's missing from their concept, the consciousness doesn't DIRECTLY manipulate matter,
it sends signals, a messenger if you will,
the underlying link.


so,
"If matter creates consciousness, how can consciousness manipulate matter?"
one: it doesn't do this directly
two: it sends those electrical signals, telling the body (matter) too manipulate itself (say through muscles)

and no,
there was no consciousness before the brain, because like I said before,
they both are a product of chance and change.

~
the brain/mind is the very same thing as the "conciousness"

lookup what the brain/minds "electrical signals" are that connect it to the body, I tried and didn't come up with much, but hey, I think I'm horrid at using Google o.0
~

[N0help4u]

Never really thought of it cause I always thought of conscience more as an intangible thing that was comprised of what made you who you are basically.
Thought more connected to your brain telling your body to move your hand or foot.

I found a site that might be helpful
Consciousness (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

[Clough]

Okay, it would seem that you are at a sketching stage as far as what you want to write. That is okay here. Do you mean this to be a poem of some sort? Please continue to write and develop your thoughts. I, or others will help you with the development of what you are trying to express.

Thank you!

[N0help4u]

I call it intangible but real so I really don't think you would be interested but
Here is a good site that pretty much covers what I believe
Watchman Nee: Spiritual Man Volume 1 Table of Contents

[firmbeliever]

I agree cosciousness does have to do with electrical impulses but there is so much more to a human than just impulses well co-ordinated.

If you were just a bunch of electrical impulses your thinking would be limited to just the necessities of living but your thoughts go beyond that and try to understand the whys,how's of all that exists around us.

I like what you have written,do continue to update us with how you go about changing and finessing (sp) it.

[coogiez]

Now,
Before some maniac says anything,
No this really isn't going too answer that (obviously old) question firm believer wrote,
But it's still a trial.



I was just trawling through these answers.

And I came across this:

"EXACTLY, electrical impulses can not tell you your values and morals"

Of course not,
Rocks can't tell trees too grow around them.

Because they have no way of comunication, electrical impulses don't write what they know, they aren't little packets of knowledge, when you get hurt, these electrical impulses don't run alllll the way up too the brain and say:

"DON'T EVER TOUCH THAT AGAIN, IT HURTS!!"

It IS the signal that is sent from the nerves telling the brain if damage is occurring.

Please, work on that sentence!

And as for firmbelievers question, heck,
That's obviously been a hard one for scientists too explain,
But,

It doesn't mean it's not there, knowledge is learnt, but how you understand it takes experience, and I doubt the mind could conjure up the ability too understand things on it's own, considering it's not one whole thing, it doesn't supries me, it takes time for development too take place!

And the only real reason why I could see why someone would ask why,
Would be curiosity.

And curiosity is just chemical and electrical impulses, so I wonder how that specific connection took place, unless that connection was and is rather simple, which would mean most animals with reasonably large brains too compensate for... other things, like physical strength, could and do think and ask the question,

Why not just stay away from that big lion!

Mabye sociality has something too do with it, why lift a heavy rock,
When two people could lift the heavy rock, and halve the weight,

Mabye it's just the helpful nature of nature that over time helped, and coaxed the human mind too develop too a state where questions were more powerful then the task being questioned, even though without the task there wouldn't be the question.






:D

[N0help4u]

Working on that sentence
I mean I see the soul and what you are talking about as two separate things because
The soul decides your morals if you are heterosexual or homosexual. It defines if you believe in God or you don't. So I see the soul as more intangible than as the electrical impulses you are referring to as the consciousness.
My link explains how I perceive the soul.

[Clough]

coogiez,

Where is firmbeliever's question to which you are referring to, please? I am somewhat confused here.

Thanks!

[coogiez]

"If you were just a bunch of electrical impulses your thinking would be limited to just the neccessities of living but your thoughts go beyond that and try to understand the whys,hows of all that exists around us."

It isn't really a question as such, but it points itself in the general direction of the question:

"why do humans question?"

As in, asking "why"

And to push it to the point of the question firmbeliever pointed at:

"why do humans ask why they ask why",
Which is, in someways a hard question to tackle without the respective knowledge to say the least, although understand the knowledge needed to answer the question would be a task in itself, the knowledge needed (probably) takes a LONG to to accumulate.

[coogiez]

And to touch on N0help4u's post, what you've just said is crazy, not too annoy you, or degrade your social status, but,

Well here's an example why the mind (i.e: the conciousness) is physical:

If your brain gets physically injured, not just your head as such, but your actual brain, say a bullet entering into it, if what you said were true, then the mind wouldn't be affected, but the mind is affected by the physical damage, because these electrical "impulses" wouldn't have, 1, their destination, and 2, their "starting point" i.e: the chemical reactions, because the chemicals wouldn't have their basis, the physical brain.

In saying that, I can theorise that the mind is chemical reactions and electrical impulses, based of the brain,
In other words,
The brain and the mind aren't two different things, they are one and the same,

The "brain/mind" theory comes to mind :rolleyes:

Which brings us back to the other question,

WHY.


Also, this will probably seem arrogant like crazy, but,

"the soul decides your morals if you are heterosexual or homosexual. It defines if you believe in God or you don't."

The social standards define what's right and wrong, they build the ethics/morals the society lives by, if 51% of a community were to say,
"homosexuality is an alright thing"

Then over time, it would be,

Extremists would have course emerge against it,
But that's one or two against 51-98,

They wouldn't get far.

[firmbeliever]

"If you were just a bunch of electrical impulses your thinking would be limited to just the neccessities of living but your thoughts go beyond that and try to understand the whys,hows of all that exists around us."

it isn't really a question as such, but it points itself in the general direction of the question:

"why do humans question?"

as in, asking "why"

and to push it to the point of the question firmbeliever pointed at:

"why do humans ask why they ask why",
which is, in someways a hard question to tackle without the respective knowledge to say the least, although understand the knowledge needed to answer the question would be a task in itself, the knowledge needed (probably) takes a LONG to to accumulate.

The question has already been answered for me, because I believe in the existence of a soul.

[jrebel7]

coogiez, you are a real hoot (southern term of endearment of one who entertains or makes us smile)! What other subjects do you address in this manner? Gets the creative thinking juices flowing, right?

Gratefully, this site allows us to give our own opinions and suggestions and beliefs so mine are as follow:

Body = chemical impulses, blood flowing, heart pumping, hair growing, liver processing, food digesting, etc.

Soul = that part of us that makes us who we are by way of personality, quirks, habits, temperament, etc.

Spirit - the embodiment of the totality of who we are in spirit form that is a part of our existence (not held any longer by the earthly vessel) when death comes and our bodies die along with electrical impulses, blood flowing, etc. but our existence continues. Our spirit leaves our earthly vessel but continues on and will one day be reunited with a glorified body that has been buried, cremated, or scattered, as is my belief according to the Bible for those who have placed their faith in God through His son Jesus Christ!

[coogiez]

"southern term of endearment of one who entertains or makes us smile"

I'm Australian ;)


Apart from that,
Until one of us comes up with actual, complete proof relating to all our coresponding beliefs and theories,
I'm really not going to be forcfully pitted against
3+ other people that follow the some beliefs/theories connectively.

That'd be stupid on my part,
And fking mean on yours.






*cough*
You think I make you laugh?

I don't break my knees for something unjustified,
I get a piece of paper out and make a list, and get what I really want them over time.

Like a cure for cancer,
Nearly f***ing impossible to stop, or even change the deteriation of genes.

But people still try.

Ha! :D

Body - keeps brain alive
Mind - kept alive by brain, supports, holds emotion (the general concept of the soul in the personal emotive stances, like not liking bread crusts n' stuff)

Edit: the mind is psychological, it's really the brain

And the spirit, well...

I can see that belief was made too keep people happy, and willfully controlled,

"if you follow me for your WHOLE life, you'll got to heaven"
Brings peace to the mind to those people that follow it,
And make the other people stare in complete and utter shame that people could be so easily controlled by fear,
And fear alone.

Edit: it's not really fear alone, there are several different things that shape the religious stance, but fear is a main one.

Now shush,
One of you taken what I've said too seriously.

And the other's are following along,
And backing what you've said up.

I made this as a simple statement,
Not a debate about what people care about.

[firmbeliever]

I understand coogiez, that your writing was just your thoughts and sorry if you thought I took it too seriously.

I was stating my thoughts and because you were trying to answer a question that seem to have come up in my post.:)

No worries.. do keep on sharing your thoughts and written words.

[jrebel7]

"southern term of endearment of one who entertains or makes us smile"

i'm australian ;)


apart from that,
untill one of us comes up with actual, complete proof relating to all our coresponding beliefs and theories,
i'm really not going to be forcfully pitted against
3+ other people that follow the some beliefs/theories connectively.

that'd be stupid on my part,
and fking mean on yours.


*cough*
you think i make you laugh?

i don't break my knees for something unjustified,
i get a piece of paper out and make a list, and get what i really want them over time.

like a cure for cancer,
nearly f***ing impossible to stop, or even change the deteriation of genes.

but people still try.

ha! :D

body - keeps brain alive
mind - kept alive by brain, supports, holds emotion (the general concept of the soul in the personal emotive stances, like not liking bread crusts n' stuff)

edit: the mind is psychological, it's really the brain

and the spirit, well...

i can see that belief was made too keep people happy, and willfully controlled,

"if you follow me for your WHOLE life, you'll got to heaven"
brings peace to the mind to those people that follow it,
and make the other people stare in complete and utter shame that people could be so easily controlled by fear,
and fear alone.

edit: it's not really fear alone, there are several different things that shape the religious stance, but fear is a main one.

now shush,
one of you taken what i've said too seriously.

and the other's are following along,
and backing what you've said up.

i made this as a simple statement,
not a debate about what people care about.

Aw Oh!! I think I am a bit confused. :eek:

When someone posts, I thought it was to get other people's thoughts. But I read here in your post that you "made this as a simple statement, not a debate about what people care about". I was not striving to debate, just sharing my thoughts and beliefs. I apologize coogiez. I meant no disrespect in any way to you.

You don't make me laugh... you make me smile. I love abstract thinking. My son is great at taking a topic, any topic, and taking one side of it and going to the nth degree. That is how he and I enjoy some of our time together. He may believe the exact opposite of the stance he has taken but he likes the discussion. It enlivens him and me also. I enjoy it.

You sound angry that I posted my opinion so I guess you don't enjoy the discussion side of things so I won't post here. I don't apologize for what I addressed in my post for that is what I do truly believe with all of my being, however, I didn't mean to offend or make you angry. I hope you will forgive me for any offense.

Take care and keep those thoughts running deep and long. You may find more answers to more of life's questions than anyone would even dare dream.

[coogiez]

I've had the disadvantage too be pulled into a debate about beliefs before,

Drove me insane (nearly) :p

Sorry if I lashed out :eek:

:D

Bah, you don't need to forgive!

[firmbeliever]

Don't worry I don't do religious debates too well either :).

[jrebel7]

i've had the disadvantage too be pulled into a debate about beliefs before,

drove me insane (nearly) :p

sorry if i lashed out :eek:

:D

bah, you don't need to forgive!

<<<<<<<<HUGS>>>>>>>> all around!!!!!! :p :p :p