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classyT · Jan 22, 2013, 07:21 AM

Zach,

Show me a verse where he condemned anyone ( other than pharisee's) that isn't why he came. However he DID point it out. Now why was that? The woman was coming to the well at that time of day because of her questionable past. She was embarrsassed by it. If it was no big deal to God.. why point it out. Paul also said it matter. It is the Marriage bed that is undefiled... not the girlfriend boyfriend in love bed. I just don't want you being deceived. Will the Lord stop loving you? No.. will you lose your salvation... NO! But it is wrong biblically and even the world sees sex outside of marriage as a sin. Although I admit the lines are more blurred there than years ago.

Jesus also said to look at a woman with lust was the same as having had sex with her in the heart. His STANDARD is higher than ours. And REMEMBER He also did not condemn the woman caught in adultry... in fact he send her accusers packin... but what did he say to her? I don't condmen you... Go and sin no more. ( not it is OK to sleep with someone other than your husband as long as you love them and want to marry them one day)

I am ALL for questioning what we have been taught... but honestly God will NOT give us an answer that goes against.his written word. The bible says he places his WORD above his NAME. It is a big deal to God.

BTW if you really love this girl and want to wait on her to be ready... go for it. But you cannot have sex with her and be in the will of God. Now, you can get baffled by me if you want to, you can't dislike my answer if you want to. But if you thought it was OK in the first place... we wouldn't even be talking. Sorry Zach... :(

ZackeryBurch · Jan 22, 2013, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by classyT

Zach,

Show me a verse where he condemned anyone ( other than pharisee's) that isn't why he came. However he DID point it out. Now why was that? The woman was coming to the well at that time of day because of her questionable past. She was embarrsassed by it. If it was no big deal to God ..why point it out. Paul also said it matter. It is the Marriage bed that is undefiled....not the girlfriend boyfriend in love bed. I just don't want you being decieved. Will the Lord stop loving you? No..will you lose your salvation...NO! But it is wrong biblically and even the world sees sex outside of marriage as a sin. Although I admit the lines are more blurred there than years ago.

Jesus also said to look at a woman with lust was the same as having had sex with her in the heart. His STANDARD is higher than ours. And REMEMBER He also did not condemn the woman caught in adultry....in fact he send her accusers packin...but what did he say to her? I don't condmen you.... Go and sin no more. ( not it is ok to sleep with someone other than your husband as long as you love them and want to marry them one day)

I am ALL for questioning what we have been taught...but honestly God will NOT give us an answer that goes against.his written word. The bible says he places his WORD above his NAME. It is a big deal to God.

BTW if you really love this girl and want to wait on her to be ready...go for it. But you cannot have sex with her and be in the will of God. Now, you can get baffled by me if you want to, you can't dislike my answer if you want to. But if you thought it was OK in the first place...we wouldn't even be talkin. sorry Zach....:(

Did Jesus not tell the adulteress to "go and sin no more"? Don't you think he would have mentioned it to the Samaritan woman at the well, you think he was that "desperate" for time that he couldn't at least forgive her of her sin? I don't believe I'm wrong and I will stand before the Lord as my judge. And I didn't think it was OK in the first place, that is why I went to the Lord in prayer. I didn't believe it was at first, not until God gave me the "go ahead". Now there's nothing you can say that would change my attitude or belief. So, I am not talking, because there is nothing to discuss, the conflict is within each of us. May the Lord judge me according to Old Testament law if I am wrong.

classyT · Jan 22, 2013, 07:48 AM

Zack,

He told the woman at the well something he didn't tell the woman caught in adultry. He was reaching each woman in a way they needed to be reached. He deals with us all as individuals. However he doesn't change his standards for us. He didn't NEED to tell the woman at the well that or he would have.

Jesus didn't tell you to have sex with your girl and then say in his written WORD (which he places above his name , did I mention that?) to FLEE FORINICATION. I am 100 percent sure of it. I'm sorry. I'm not judging you and I agree, this is between you and the Lord. I wish you the best. I really do.

If it helps when I was young, I struggled with these very issues. Life is hard and trying to live for the Lord in a world that screams to do the opposite is IMPOSSIBLE without the Lord. So I do understand.

P.S. You are saved by Grace and no longer under the ot law. If you have accepted him as your savior, he paid for all of your sins and you will not be JUDGED for them. BUT he wants you walking in TRUTH. Nuff said.

Wondergirl · Jan 22, 2013, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by classyT

WG,

I never ever said it was the same. I said PERHAPS it was. It was suggested it was...I don't know. I DO know being engaged today is NOT the same as being married. Hope I made myself clear.

I was more wondering about the "culture" comment. I don't get what you mean. What does culture have to do with anything?

Why is engagement different now?

dwashbur · Jan 22, 2013, 07:56 AM

Zackery,
You came in here and threw down a challenge, I daresay with a bit of a chip on your shoulder. Several people have tried to answer you, but you have made it clear that no amount of evidence is going to be enough to sway you. I'm not sure what it is you think you're looking for here, but from my perspective the answer seems to be "self-justification." That's not what this board is about. We're here to learn from each other; you're here to find vindication for your sex life. But the truth is, The Bible has negative things to say about ALL extra-marital sex. You've been given enough material to demonstrate that, but you choose to try and explain away anything that doesn't agree with what you already have in mind.

Do you honestly imagine that there wasn't a tone of correction in Jesus' voice and words when he talked with the woman at the well? Get real! The whole reason she changed the subject was because he laid her life bare and exposed her ongoing sin. It's the same with the other passages that you've tried to brush aside.

As for engagement, well, let's see. I was engaged three times, had a sexual relationship with two of them, and all of them fell apart. I finally managed to marry the fourth one. Any more, engagement isn't really the binding force that it used to be. I have to say I'm with Tess on that one, partly from looking at the country around me and partly from personal experience.

Oh, and it seems awfully convenient that "God" told you exactly what you wanted to hear. Guess what? That wasn't God.

If you acknowledge the authority of the Bible, you can choose to hear what it actually says on the subject or you can blow it off. But you can't arbitrarily change what it is saying just because you don't like it. And that's what you have been trying to do through this whole thread.

classyT · Jan 22, 2013, 07:57 AM

WG,
I don't know... it was suggested back in Martin Luther's day ( culture) being engaged was the same as marriage. Or close enough. I didn't agree or disagree with that thought.

What I am saying in in our day ( culture) , engagement is NOT the same as marriage or people don't view it as being married. NOT that I ever thought it mattered. Sex outside of marriage is wrong and considered fornication.

Wondergirl · Jan 22, 2013, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by ZackeryBurch

May the Lord judge me according to Old Testament law if I am wrong.

But we aren't judged by OT law. We will be judged by how we loved.

And one of them, a doctor of the Law, putting him to the test, asked him, "Master, which is the great commandment in the Law?" Jesus said to him, "'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.' This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like it, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:35-40)

Unconditional love goes beyond the mere duty of Leviticus 19:18, "love thy neighbor as thyself," but loves when not loved back, gives without getting, and always looks for what is best in the other person.

Wondergirl · Jan 22, 2013, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by classyT

Sex outside of marriage is wrong and considered fornication.

According to the OT.

Fr_Chuck · Jan 22, 2013, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

According to the OT.

No not exactly, again, like with Abram and Sarah, it was OK for Abram to be with Sarahs maid, they were not "married" but it was an allowed relationship.

David, as king ( and many other leaders in OT) had several wives and concubines whom they had sex with. The issue there was having sex with prostitutes or those you were not going to have a long term allowed relationship with.

The child of the maid or concubine if they were first born got all the rights under the law ( OT law) as the child of the wife.
Thus the issue with Ishmael giving up his birth right to his brother.

Wondergirl · Jan 22, 2013, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

No not exactly, again, like with Abram and Sarah, it was ok for Abram to be with Sarahs maid, they were not "married" but it was an allowed relationship.

Not sure it was "ok" but since humans have free will, God doesn't swoop down to put roadblocks in our way. Plus, back then in the OT, He was building a great nation, so the more children produced, the merrier.

dontknownuthin · Jan 22, 2013, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by ZackeryBurch

First off, I'm not trying to remain anonymous. My name is my real name, you can google it and you will find my face book, my twitter and a whole lot of other things that you will see as me. I'm not trying to remain anonymous. I believe this outright and I challenge any Christian to prove me wrong. And believe me, I know there are things that can go wrong. I'm not at all saying that people shouldn't be careful. I think that people really should be careful and that there are many ways that things can go wrong. My girlfriend is a prime example of this, she had "flings" and things like that. Does she regret them? yes. Did they hurt me? yes. Do I still love her, of course. I'm not trying to give people an excuse to have sex whenever and whomever they want, I'm challenging people to question why they believe what they believe. I do not feel guilty about losing my virginity to my Girlfriend. I am not ashamed, I will stand before the most high God and not feel any remorse for what I have done. As for my "mistaking" my "own thoughts and imagination for a conversation with God" that is for you to believe. I must just be imagining my whole life then...God must just not be present. God speaks to me daily. Believe it or don't, but just remember that those who doubt miss out on blessings.

First - this is an anonymous forum. Some people, like you, choose to divulge your actual identity. Most of us, for safety reasons and I suppose other reasons, do not. So, you're asking anonymous people for their opinion on a topic.

Second, the subject of the topic is one about which you allege you have already discussed in a complete narrative directly with God. So the question is this - if God told you directly, why do you need our opinion? Why do you even want it? Have you contacted the Vatican or your church leaders about this miraculous direct discussion with God? Perhaps you think this conversation is normal - it's not the norm for the rest of us. I think it's safe to say that most faithful, prayerful people pray to God and hope that he will influence our circumstances and decisions. When something goes well, we thank Him. When something goes badly, we ask Him to help us get through it. But I don't think most people, barring a few people near my train stop who apparently get transmissions through tinfoil hats, have complete conversations like yours with God.

Third, it sounds to me that you are looking to justify your personal decision to have sex with your girlfriend within a Christian context. You may think the Christian churches are all wrong about this point. Fr. Chuck raises some interesting questions... references, for example, to married men having relations with their maids, or additional wives. I think most of us, over time since it's been a couple thousand years, have recognized that ancient ideas that women were chattle, either to their father, their husband or their boss, were wrong. Sure, it raises dilemmas - do we take the Bible literally, or do we seek meaning in it? I take the latter path personally. I believe we were meant to evolve to recognize that a boss should not have sex with his maid - there's an imbalance of power. Most of us have recognized the sexism in a man having multiple wives, again viewing wives as things to acquire, not as one equal partner. None of these examples though, defends the practice of having sex with a girlfriend who has told you flat out that she's not ready for either engagement or marriage.

She may intend one day to get engaged to you - you may view that as a promise. You are promised to her in your heart. You may view this as splitting hairs. Then again, why is this young lady not ready for marriage or engagement? Perhaps she is not confident that, at 19, she is old enough, mature enough or in possession of enough self-awareness or life experience to choose her life-long mate. So, if any of these things are true, she's not ready to make that commitment to you. This is not like the promises that Fr. Chuck raises from Biblical times, when a promise to marry was considered adequate at times.

The difference is first, you have a one-sided promise - which I would call a "hope". I'm not saying she doesn't love you - I would hope so after 6 years. But she is not caught up with you yet in this, nor should any reasonable person expect her to be at her age.

Second, in Biblical times, and even today in that part of the world, most marriage - if not all at that time - was arranged. A promise of marriage was really considered a very serious contract between families and it was near impossible for a bride or groom to back out. They'd need their parent's consent to do so, which would bring shame on the entire family. So an engagement then was a whole different ball of wax than a western engagement today.

If you waited 6 years for sex, that's better than most. Of course, you started dating her before most parents would even allow their daughter to date - by several years among my circle of friends. But I think it's a huge stretch to claim that your premarital sex is condoned by Christianity. I don't know any Christian doctrine whatsoever that would support your view, and I guess I'm not adequately convinced that you have a more direct line to God than the rest of us that I would accept your take on theology above, for example, the Vatican - head of my own church, or for that matter, the leadership of any Christian church I can think of.

Riot · Jan 22, 2013, 08:52 PM

My girlfriend is a prime example of this, she had "flings" and things like that. Does she regret them? Yes. Did they hurt me? Yes

Doesn't that mean that things like 'flings' and other stuff outside of marriage is harmful then, if they hurt you?

Riot, tell me where in those verses that it actually reference "sex"

Read Genesis 4 where Adam "made love to his wife"
are you looking for a verse that says "do not have sex with your girlfriend" ?

What if you have sex and then break up with your girlfriend later on before you get married? Then if you get a new girlfriend is that OK to do the same thing, if you feel your 'heat is married to her' too? And then what if you break up with her too?
Is that considered fornication?
Or is that considered 'sex within marriage'
And if you break up would your heart become 'divorced to her'?

When your married you know your committed to that person forever.
Why don't you read about what jesus said about marriage in Matt 19:5-6...

ZackeryBurch · Jan 23, 2013, 05:49 AM

I will not say that my premarital sex is "condoned" by any Christian document. I'm saying the Bible doesn't condemn it. God told me that the choice is mine, and that I know the consequences. And I know that I'm committed to her forever. But then again all you have is my word of what both I and God say. I can see I won't convince many people, but maybe that is why the Bible says if what we do causes our brother's to fall into sin, then to avoid doing it in front of them. Truth is, even the Greek uses the word Porniea which translates into sexual immorality. I thank each of you for being honest with me and loving me enough to tell me what you think is right, but the truth is, God's words to me come first. May God bless. Love you all.

classyT · Jan 23, 2013, 09:32 AM

WG,

I agree with your thoughts on Abram and Sarah. It wasn't OK but God allowed it because he gave us free will. He paid the consequences for it too. God allowed in the OT many to have multiple wives. I don't really know why he allowed it but it is interesting that he did. I do believe fornication was just as wrong in the OT as Paul states it is in the NT... OR..
Perhaps it is worse now for a Christian to commit this act because the Holy spirit dwells in them. Could it be that is the reason Paul says this sin is different than other sins because it is against your own body and the Lord dwells there? I don't know. Just wondering.

Zachy boy,

You are going to do what you are going to do. But God will NEVER go against his WORD. If he says it is wrong in the bible than it is WRONG. He isn't going to tell you it is OK to fornicate and then tell the rest of us to FLEE fornication. The bible says he is NOT a man that he should lie. He can't lie, he can't. I know I am beating a dead horse here but I just wanted to say that ONE last time.

ZackeryBurch · Jan 23, 2013, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by classyT

Zachy boy,

You are going to do what you are going to do. But God will NEVER go against his WORD. If he says it is wrong in the bible than it is WRONG. He isn't going to tell you it is ok to fornicate and then tell the rest of us to FLEE fornication. The bible says he is NOT a man that he should lie. He can't lie, he can't. I know I am beating a dead horse here but I just wanted to say that ONE last time.

I think you are beating what was left of that dead horse after it had been consumed by flies and maggots and worms. Thank you for your concern, but I am adamant about this. I'm not going to be judged on the day of judgement for this because I am not wrong. But thank you for your concerns classyT.

Wondergirl · Jan 23, 2013, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by ZackeryBurch

I think you are beating what was left of that dead horse after it had been consumed by flies and maggots and worms. Thank you for your concern, but I am adamant about this. I'm not going to be judged on the day of judgement for this because I am not wrong. But thank you for your concerns classyT.

It sounds like what you are offering to your fiancé is the kind of love Jesus spoke of.

dontknownuthin · Jan 23, 2013, 10:37 AM

God condemns behaviors but in my version of Christian faith at any rate, there's also forgiveness. We're supposed to do what He asks of us, including limiting sex to marital relationships. If we fall short and are genuinely remorseful, there is forgiveness. If we are arrogant about it though, I'm not sure about that one.

Riot · Jan 23, 2013, 04:47 PM

I'm saying the Bible doesn't condemn it.

What scripture?

ZackeryBurch · Jan 24, 2013, 02:57 AM

Thank you all for giving me honest insight. I very much appreciate it.

Fr_Chuck · Jan 24, 2013, 09:32 AM

I want to ask all posters to remember we are here to discuss, I did not move this to discussion, since this could be talked about here.

Zackery has as a new member came back and followed up, did not just leave a hard question to cause trouble and not come back. He perhaps phrased his question more like a challenge, but then that was what it was, a challenge to discuss.

I even pushed the issue somewhat, with what we are discussing in the OT bible class I am talking in college. Most people have many concepts that are just not supported by the bible, from the view point of many scholars. Often because of denominational teachings, Which is why I threw in Martin Luther, and I could have discussed Wesley but did not.

Zackery came back and politely discussed this and I think he will add some fun to the Christianity threads, if others will be polite and just discuss facts, verses and not get personal in this.