[Allheart]

Still when I talk to him her is convinced that he is where he needs to be and thinks that the mission they have been asked to do is a worthy one. He tells me the stories we hear at home do no reflect what is really happening there ,and that especially in the last few months there has been tremendous progress. When I read mil-blogs I am hearing generally the same story . They know what we are seeing and reading at home ,and it is not the narrative they would tell.





People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.[Orwell]

Tomder - I can not tell you the number of guys that have returned home, who I have personally sat down and spoke to, who say the exact words that we are not hearing or seeing what actually is going on, and it is good. I will also say, their strength, dedication, and belief in fullfilling their mission, which is ultimately protecting their country and fellow soldier, is first and foremost in their minds and hearts. They have an unshakeable loyalty to all of us, the least we all can do, is return it.

[Fr_Chuck]

Yes, it is so true, one of my sons was in the first desert storm and was in the first invasion of iraq, he was there at the airport and was one of the first to invade the city. I am looking at a flag on my wall that was on one of the tanks that was on one of the first tanks into Bagdad. ( signed by most of his unit)

He did two tours in Iraq this time before being wounded. After he came home, he spent over a year trying to pull every string he had to get back over other.

But like that, when I talk to the local soldiers here from our unit here, we get the same story, they don't understand why the news shows it the way they do, they tell me of so many new schools that are open, about malls, about families playing in the street, water lines to places they never had water before, cell phones, and TV dishes in their yards.

They by in large believe in their mission and while like in Ireland and other places with terror attacks, know that those types of attacks can never be stopped, they see the changes in the people, and in the nation.

Why we as a nation can not support our troops is beyond me.

[speechlesstx]

There was this crazy baptist church lady awhile back saying that the soldiers were all committing sins and deserve to die and all kinds of weirdness.

Needkarma is right, the operative word here is crazy. These Westboro "Baptists" are vile lunatics.

[Fr_Chuck]

Needkarma is right, the operative word here is crazy. These Westboro "Baptists" are vile lunatics.

And I guess there is no way to make them not use the word Baptist, but they are not real Baptist, they disgrace the entire good name of all Baptist everywhere.

[kindj]

I probably shouldn't answer right now, since I just got up and all the caffeine hasn't entered my bloodstream yet, but I'm going to take a crack at it anyway.

I am a vet. I have been stationed and worked all over the place. I remember catching some heat after coming home from the Panama invasion, of all places. I caught a fair amount after coming home from Desert Sheild/Storm. I remember being slightly offended, but the overriding emotion for me was simply confusion. I came to the conclusion that some people simply aren't happy unless they have something to complain about, and that generally such people aren't worth much intellectual, verbal, or physical effort on my part. It was easier on other missions, because we had relaxed grooming standards, and often times flew to and fro on civilian carriers under passports, rather than gov. orders.

I remember when Afghanistan and Iraq both kicked off, and was sorely torn about what to do. I had been out of the service for a little while, and was genuinely enjoying my wife, kids, and "normal" civilian job. However, I felt a pressing NEED to go back, to help my friends accomplish a mission I believed in.

Here's the facts, though: If you study history deeply enough, you'll discover that at no time were ALL the people behind whatever war America was involved in at the time. History books have been kinder to historical wars than they have been to the more modern ones (Vietnam forward). I don't know why that is. Could be the liberal shift in the media and power bases since the sixties, could be something else. I don't have enough brainpower to speculate at this time. ;)

There have ALWAYS been a certain percentage of nitwits who cannot separate the national policy itself from the instruments of that policy; therefore, their limited mental capacity only allows them to progress as far as a "shoot the messenger" mentality. Yes, it hurts us (the soldiers and their families) emotionally when we encounter these people. Take whatever small comfort you can in the fact that these people are obviously operating on emotion rather than logic, and that their higher-order thinking skills are simply absent.

It is all well and good to question and even criticize our government. All the better if we can do so intelligently, but unfortunately, the Constitution doesn't place an intellectual restriction on the Bill of Rights. Sometimes I wish it did...

I've questioned and even criticized ALL the administrations in my lifetime, including this one. Am I behind our current operations? Absolutely. Do I have difficulty sometimes with their methods and lack of clarity on parts of it? You bet. Do I carry some stupid sign in the street, hoping CNN will see me? Do I rail at the E-4 arriving home at the airport about my concerns and questions? No, and hell no. I write/call my elected monkeys and express my concerns in an intelligent, respectful manner.

In short, take heart! The vast, overwhelming majority of Americans love their troops, and understand (as best they can) that they are doing their jobs with a fierceness and dedication that is very rarely seen in the civilian world, and thus is a model of sorts for others to follow.

So what do we do with those who are verbally and/or physically harassing our returning troops? Emotion tells us to hunt them down and do ugly things to them. Logic, however, tells us that we have to support their right to have their own point of view as well, as distasteful as it might be to us.

Personally, when I am sucked into some black vortex of idiocy, such as a local coffee shop (remember when coffee was just freakin' coffee?), I quickly acknowledge that I support and defend their right to hold their point of view, but just as quickly remind them that I have those same rights, and proceed to use my rights to express my point of view. Only one time has it come close to getting physical, as the "protestor wannabe" had 5 of his little friends, and I was all by my lonesome. These peace-loving youngsters were going to attempt to beat the h*** out of me, in the name of peace of course, as a way of showing their First Amendment rights.

Too bad they forgot about the rest of the Bill of Rights though, as I was at the time taking full advantage of my Second Amendment right, legally and with the appropriate license. An off-duty cop watched the whole thing, and thought it was pretty funny...

DK

[Skell]

Fore the troops, against the war. Common feeling amongst most people I know.

Im getting a sense of déjà vu!

[army4life]

You all are so great for supporting the troops. But you all seem to be against the war in Iraq? Or Afgan... Have you ever heard that song."have you forgotton" I don't think it was right that Americans were told that we were going into Iraq for WMD but I think of it like this. The people of Iraq lived under a leader that would kill his own people with gas and other unthinkable ways. I think as a World Superpower the United States had a duty to go in and take out that leader and form a new government. You also have to think about the fact that we are not with war with Iraq just in it. Who we are fighting in Iraq are the same people connected to 9/11.My only request in changing the way the war is being fought would be to send more troops out to Look of Osma rather than fighting his goons. But either way I think that the United States is Just in this war on terror and that it would be a bad thing to have a total troop pull out of Iraq. YouTube - Have you forgotten watch this video it really speaks!

Thanks for all you who support the troops and God Bless them.

[Skell]

You all are so great for supporting the troops. But you all seem to be against the war in Iraq? or Afgan... Have you ever heard that song."have you forgotton" I dont think it was right that Americans were told that we were going into Iraq for WMD but I think of it like this. The people of Iraq lived under a leader that would kill his own people with gas and other unthinkable ways. I think as a World Superpower the United States had a duty to go in and take out that leader and form a new government.

I agree with you about helping those countries that are in need, but the question must be asked why haven't the powers that be invaded Sudan or Zimbabwe to oust their leaders that will kill their own? Surely they are just as dangerous to their own people as Hussein was?

This isn't and never was about ousting Hussein to help the people of Iraq from a Government. No way.

Link it to terror if you must but not to aiding in the formation of a Democratic Government.

[army4life]

Didn't mean to say that was his reason. But that is what has happened and I am with that all the way. The facts were there about WMD in Iraq misleading but there and President bush acted in the best way I think to defend the United States. How long would it have been if the Iraq war was never started the Iraq would have had an Atomic Bomb. Or would we been into with Iran or would there Program still be secret? We can't help all the countries of the world. But if it has do with the U.S overtaking a government for the best of the people of that country and the best of our country why shouldn't we? Do we have to worry right now about Sudan or Zimbabwe have Nukes? People do not understand what Nuclar Bombs can do, but that is the American way Prior to 9/11 the United States had never been Attacked at home. Pearl Harbor was not apart of the U.S when that happened. Americans don't have a grasp of war and what it is all about besides what they see on TV. Even with 9/11 that wasn't a war that was just an Attack. As in war I mean weeks.Months years of 9/11's happeing everyday in the United States. Do you really want that for your country. As far as people wanting the soldiers to come home. God Bless them all. But most of them knew when they enlisted that they would most likely be going into that combat zone. The United States doesn't make anyone go. Its free will when you sign that contract.. a pull out would be the worst thing the U.S could do now. Look at the numbers around 3600 troops have been killed in Iraq in Afgan.. God bless them all, but that again is not really an Alarming number for a war that has been about this long.

[ETWolverine]

This poem says it all regarding how the troops feel when rejected by the general public for doing their jobs... protecting the rights of the very same people who reject them.

Rudyard Kipling
Tommy

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o'beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's ``Thank you, Mister Atkins,'' when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's ``Thank you, Mr. Atkins,'' when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! They'll shove me in the stalls!

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints:
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

'nuff said.

Elliot

[kindj]

But you all seem to be against the war in Iraq? or Afgan...

Oh, man. I hope I didn't give you the impression that I don't support our action over there. I do, 100%. Maybe I should clarify.

I absolutely DESPISE the fact that it was necessary. I HATE the thought of people going through what they are (Americans and Iraqis) over there, because I KNOW what they're going through. Somebody once said something to the effect of "No one hates the idea of war as much as someone who's been in one." (paraphrase). But that doesn't negate the necessity for war sometimes, or the responsibility to wage it when circumstances call for it.

Now that I'm permanently out of uniform, I am taking full advantage of my 1st Amendment right to disagree with our leaders--NOT on WHAT they're doing, but in HOW they do it at times. First and foremost, I am interested in our men and women coming up in an upright position and breathing. I am not, however, so foolish or naïve to believe that they will all return in such a way. A very close second to that is the desire for a full and complete victory--meaning our objectives have been absolutely and irreversably achieved. I would like more public clarification on those objectives, myself. Not for my benefit, but for the benefit of the American people, so they will have some yardstick to use in measuring the success of our operations. Finally, I would like for said operations to be conducted in a way that quickly and efficiently achieves my first two desires, and THAT is where I'm having most of my problems.

The talking heads on TV say that our troops aren't trained for the small-unit, guerrilla warfare tactics being used by the enemy. I can say with absolute, positive, 100% certainty that they are full of s***. They ARE trained for that, but they're not being allowed to implement their training, for fear of making a lawyer somewhere worry. Somebody, somewhere is not turning our intelligence assets loose to actually work on the problem. That same somebody is not allowing our troops to operate in such a way as to solve the problem. The reasons for that are unknown to me, but I suspect it's nothing more than politics at work again, the thought of which threatens to make me physically ill.

The majority of people in our country abhor violence--myself among them. That's good, and that's healthy. However, most folks understand that there is a very real NEED for violence to take place sometimes, and that we have some well-equipped, well-trained, and pretty well-paid men and women whose very JOB it is to perform that violence, and they're OK with that. Unfortunately, there's a small minority--albeit a very vocal one--who is NOT OK with that, and they are the ones getting the attention of the powers-that-be right now, and THAT'S what needs to change.

No, I am for our actions over there. As has been said often enough by people far wiser than me, "We fight 'em there or we fight 'em here." I don't know about everyone else, but I don't relish the thought of a terrorist coming into my schoolhouse and killing the kids under my care in the name of some BS political statement.

You take care of yourself. You said you're in TX, so I figure that puts you either at Hood or Bliss, and Hood is the more likely option, I think. Band together with those like you, and keep the faith, and bake a big cake when your soldier comes home safely, as I pray he does. When he does, and the reunions have taken place, tell him I'm proud of him for carrying on the tradition.

DK

[ScottGem]

I just noticed this thread and will put my two cents in. I have the utmost respect for our troops and they have my unwavering support. It is VERY rare that I hear of anyone who feels differently.

You all are so great for supporting the troops. But you all seem to be against the war in Iraq? or Afgan... Have you ever heard that song."have you forgotton" I dont think it was right that Americans were told that we were going into Iraq for WMD but I think of it like this. The people of Iraq lived under a leader that would kill his own people with gas and other unthinkable ways. I think as a World Superpower the United States had a duty to go in and take out that leader and form a new government. You also have to think about the fact that we are not with war with Iraq just in it. Who we are fighting in Iraq are the same people connected to 9/11.My only request in changing the way the war is being fought would be to send more troops out to Look of Osma rather than fighting his goons. But either way I think that the United States is Just in this war on terror and that it would be a bad thing to have a total troop pull out of Iraq. YouTube - Have you forgotten watch this video it really speaks!

Thanks for all you who support the troops and God Bless them.

But I must answer this. I have not forgotten 9/11 having lived through it. I supported the actions in Afghanistan as a valid response to 9/11. I do not and never have supported the invasion of Iraq. There was never any proof that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 or Al Qaeda. That we are fighting Al Qaeda in Iraq now is a result of the invasion not a reason for it.

There is no question that Sadaam was an evil man, but we do NOT as a world power or for any other reason, have the right to invade a soveriegn nation just because we don't like the way its governed. Do you think you have the right invade your neighbor's home because you don't like the way he raises his children?

We should never have invaded Iraq and we need to get out as soon as possible. The only thing I agree with the Bush administration is that we can't just pull out nor can we set a timetable for doing so. Dubya has gotten us stuck in this sorry situation and we now have to see it through. I will forever fault him for getting us in there in the first place.

Oh and I looked at that Youtube piece. I'll say it again, there is no proof, never has been, that Saddaam or Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. To use 9/11 to justify the invasion of Iraq is wrong.

[tomder55]

I get the MNF-Iraq news letter . Just wanted to say that if anyone wishes to send the troops a greeting ;words of encouragement ,support they can be sent via this email .

[email protected]

[tomder55]

Or if that doesn't work try here

Multi-National Force - Iraq - Send Messages to the Troops

[ScottGem]

ETWolverine agrees: Hate to disagree with you, Scott, but we DID have the right to invade, for several reasons: 1) The failure of SH to comply with the cease-fire agreement and 2) failure of SH to comply with 14 UNSC resolutions. We had a legal RESPONSIBILITY to act.

Sorry, but no. First SH was complying with the UN, just not to the satisfaction of Bush and the rest of the world. But even given that, the UN had the responsibility to act, not the US. Even if the responsibility to act existed, invasion was not a proper response.

Hussein made a very large mistake in underestimating how the world would react to his invading Kuwait. He got his nose severely bloodied for it. I think he learned a lesson from it, though not enough of one. The lesson he learned was that, as long as he remained within his borders he could (literally) get away with murder. But venture outside his borders and he was done for.

I firmly believe that he represented no threat to the security of the US because of that. Where he made his second mistake was in underestimating Dubya's stupid pride. He seems to have enjoyed tweaking Dubya by playing games with weapons inspections, making it appear that he had WMDs and other ways of thumbing his nose at the west, specifically the US. But he underestimated Dubya, thinking he wouldn't start a shooting war just because he was being made to look foolish.

Unfortunately for the US, Dubya is a prideful fool and had enough of having a petty dictator thumb his nose at him. So more US soldiers have had to die because of that, not to mention the billions of dollars wasted.