[61971levy]

If you want to be a citizen you must speak the language, that is where the line should be drawn.

[NeedKarma]

So a compulsory language test before citizenship is granted? That actually makes good sense. I can see a new business sector cropping up from this: "Pass Citizenship Language Test With Only 4 Days of Classes."

[61971levy]

My immigrant ancesters from germany and russia had to assimilate to the language, why shouldn't others.

[excon]

Hello again, tom:

Why does it bother you so much that other people speak a language different than yours? Is it really the cost of printing?? Somehow, I don't think so. Is it because you think you should be able to speak English when you shop at your local bodega? Where in the bill of rights does it say that you have the right to be spoken to in Engligh??

I'm sorry. The only reason that I can possibly think you want to do this is racisim.

excon

[tomder55]

To all ;

This never was about which language someone chooses to speak . That is a 1st Amendment right.

Below is what I said of the bill rider that was passed in debate last week . It is about how far the Federal Government is required to go to accommodate multiple languages spoken by new immigrants .

The measure does not prohibit information and documents in languages other than English, it clarifies that while a government agency can opt to provide services in English, citizens do not have an affirmative right to ask for such services. An exception is made for existing federal law, such as in health care and judicial matters where bi-lingual documents are and should be published.

[excon]

my immigrant ancesters from germany and russia had to assimilate to the language, why shouldn't others.

Hello again, levy:

And, so did mine. However, citizenship wasn't denied them because they didn't speak English, and that's what you're now promoting.

Assimilation and citizenship AREN'T the same thing.

excon

[CaptainRich]

The opposition in Congress to making English the official language of the United States is a near perfect example of the failure of the current leadership in Washington to adopt a deeply held value of the American people. Eighty-five percent of Americans want the federal government to join with 30 states in making English the official language of the United States, and yet our elites consider the adoption of this value as a distraction or worse.

Consider the Democrat presidential debate Sunday . When asked for a show of hands, Mike Gravel was the only candidate to express support for English. Barack Obama said that the question "is designed precisely to divide us" and that "when we get distracted by those kinds of questions, I think we do a disservice to the American people." If 85% of Americans support English as the official language of government, the only division is between Senator Obama and the American people.

Evita Clinton responded that she supported English as the "national" language but not the "official" language of the United States, since making English the official language would prevent the printing of foreign language ballots for U.S. elections.

It seems that only the elites can possibly see 85% support for a deeply held American value as divisive and think it is acceptable to express support for English as long as it does not actually have any meaning.

Why isn't already automatically "Official?" Isn't the dollar the official currency? Did we have to vote on that? Isn't DC the official Capitol? I don't rember a vote.

Just curious : When something like this comes up, and say goes before congress, isn't it presented in English? Discussed in English? The findings printed in English? Any rulings that become, get "handed into law" in English?

What other sovereign nation, with the intestinal fortitude to try correcting the wrongs of this planet, has had to endure such an assault on its very own sovereignty?

Do you remember "the spoke story?"... This "wheel" has been turning for hundreds of years. Every so often a new spoke gets added. All the old spokes shift a little while the new spoke works hard to fit into something that's already working. A little wobbly at first then as the new spoke adjust, the wheel straightens out and continues.

If it was easy...

[excon]

Hello again:

Here we are all caught up in semantics. But, we ARE talking about English... So, let's see if we can actually use the language to communicate.

I have no problem with English being proclaimed the "official" language. I DO think it's rather stupid because, as Captain Rich pointed out, English IS our official language. It IS our official language, just because. Nobody had to declare it so, and I don't understand the need to do it now?

So, tell me, in our official language, specifically what you want to happen when English is declared to be "official"?? Does it mean that you will no longer print any "official" document in any language other than English?? If so, are you for this to save on printing costs?? Do you believe that crap yourself??

excon

[mr.yet]

I agree with excon, english is already the official language. How could we answers the posts and questions if it were not.

[NeedKarma]

Oui, je crois que c'est l'intention de la personne qui a posé la question originalement.

[mr.yet]

Oui, je crois que c'est l'intention de la personne qui a posé la question originalement.

Ok, I got he message.:)

[tomder55]

Thanks Captain

It would seem self evident.

And again I have to say again because this thread has morphed into some positions I cannot support. This is no a restriction on someone's right to speak any language they choose ;nor do I think that English spoken should be a pre-requisite.

This is a question of the obligation of the various governments to accommodate . excon who claims libertarianism would evidently compel the people no matter their feelings and in spite of the expense to foot the bill to create a dejure biligual nation . I say where we have already created bilingual systems we have gone far and beyond what is reasonably mandate.

[CaptainRich]

If every document released by government, at any level, was "required" to publish, either in print or online, in all the lanuages spoken in the United States today, it would be boggling to begin to attempt and financially a disaster. If English was the "Official" language, by law, the burden would be on the non-english speakers. Someone pointed out earlier that some things are already bi-lingual. Nothing wrong with that, but the burden shouldn't be foisted upon government to try keeping up.

[excon]

Excon who claims libertarianism would evidently compel the people no matter their feelings and in spite of the expense to foot the bill to create a dejure biligual nation .

Hello again, tom:

Bilingual?? How about multilingual??

As a good libertarian, I do feel a government hands OFF this situation would be best. That's what we have now - no official language. I'm fine with that.

But, you bring up the costs of printing again as a reason to do this. I think it's an excuse for the real reason, which is racist.

Indeed, I can probably print out any document that my computer can find, in any language I want. The government computers can do that too. If they can't, it shouldn't cost too much to make them. As a libertarian, AND A GOOD NEIGHBOR, I think it's the least we should do to welcome our newcomers.

So, I'm not buying this "cost of printing" crap. There's another reason that you're not saying. As long as you don't say it, I'm left to think it's racism.

excon

[tomder55]

Ex


So how many languages would you mandate the gvt. To print.


You can throw the charge of racism all you want. But early on in this discussion I revealed my motives

Capuchin asked : What's the benefit of having english as the official language?

To which I replied :

Capuchin



Here our diversity has historically worked because through the assimilation process English was the presumed language and I believe the glue that bonded us together.

Official English would reinforce America's historic message to new immigrants - that we expect them to learn English in their assimilation.

Official English doesn't mean "English only." None of the 30 states with official English laws prohibit government agencies from using another languages when there is a compelling public interest for doing so. All this would stipulate is that English as our official language means that for the government to act officially, it must communicate in English;the language of record is the English language.

Read any other motive you wish into it . What I do not want is Balkanization of the US.

[excon]

So how many languages would you mandate the gvt. to print.

Hello again, tom:

I'm glad you asked.

I think the stuff that needs printed ahead of time should be done in English. If anybody wants to read it in some other language, they can go to a website where they can read it or download it and print it. Or if they don't have access to a computer, they can call a toll free number and have it mailed.

I'll bet it can be completely automated, and I think it'll be really cheap to run.

What government document couldn't be handled that way? Ballots? We count mail in ballots, don't we? They're received in the mail by the voter. They could be printed in the language of the voter simply and cheaply.

I don't know. What am I missing here?

excon

PS> (edited) Please again tom, I don't think YOU are a racist. I know you better than that. I do, however, think the policy you support is.

[talaniman]

Fact- You can't deal with the public or anyone else in anything but English.
Fact-Unless you want to do yards or pick tomato's, all your life, you will learn English
Fact-Mandating an official language is a racist and separatist policy in a diverse culture, and what good would it do?? This is a non issue to my way of thinking, as its very low on the totem pole as far as things that need to be done, that goes to the greater good. It only says I speak English and so should you, There are no important jobs or positions that accommodates any language but English, no schools of higher learning, no govt jobs, so what good would it do to say English must be official if not to denigrate a whole class of people as being inferior?

[tomder55]

A nation of immigrants needs an official language . It cannot work any other way.

Excon ;I'm glad you have so much faith in gvt's ability to reproduce accurate translations . I don't and I believe I have history on my side.

What you may not realize is that the cost of multilingual government goes well beyond the price of extra printing or even the salaries for multilingual staff members. (the city of L.A. spends in excess of $1,000,000 annually printing multi-lingual ballots)

The question of translation accuracy seldom arises. It should. If a government agency's "official" translation turns out to be wrong, what does that mean legally?

This question of errors is not theoretical. In 1994, during the New York City election , the city erroneously printed the Chinese character for 'no' as a translation for 'yes'.

There was a big flap when HUD spokeswoman Ginny Terzano issued a Haitian Creole translation pamphlet with words that appeared to mock the accent " (signed by "Sekretary Andrew M. Cuomo fella")

"Yuh as a rezedent, ave di rights ahn di rispansibilities to elp mek yuh
HUD-asisted owzing ah behta owme fi yuh ahn yuh fambily. Dis is a brochure
distributed to yuh cawze Hud ah provide some fawm ahf asistance aur
subsidy fi di whole apawtment buildin. As ah pawt ahfits dedication fi
maintain di bes pawsible living enviornment fi all rezedents, yuh HUD
field affice encourage ahn suppowts . . ."We ave a pawtnaship wid everi rezedent of
HUD-assisted owzing developments: HUD prowtekss di rights ahf di tenants,
ahn tenants gauwd dem own right tru rispansible be'aviah. Owah goal is fi
guh beyan dat pawtnaship ahn create a sense ahf community . . .""

In fact this was an honest attempt to comply with mandates .This was a HUD document ;Resident Rights and Responsibilities , that was also published in Spanish,
French, Ethiopian, Korean, Portuguese, Russian,and God knows which other language.

And by the way ;why didn't the founders add it to the Constitution ? Because they did not think about it. Even though there was a very large German population in the new Republic they rejected outright the notion of printing copies of federal law in any language but English .

With the Louisiana purchase the gvt. Did not start publishing in French . Instead ;in 1811, President James Madison signed the Louisiana Enabling Act, establishing the conditions under which Louisiana could become a state. It required the laws, records, and written proceedings of the new state to be in English.

[excon]

Hello again, tom:

No, I have no faith in the governments' ability to do anything. But, if your only objection to my plan now is how it should be managed, then we're on the same page.

Right now, in the absence of an official language, states print or don't print because those people in that state decided to do it or not. There's no federal law mandating that they must. That's as it should be. No state should be forced by federal law to print or not print in any language they choose in that state.

I'm not advocating for translators or salaries. What I advocated above, is all I advocate for - a web site, good software, and a toll free number.

IF, however, there ARE paid translators, it must be because there's a NEED for them. The policy you advocate for would make them illegal.

What do you have against those who would need such a service? In court, don't you think a non English speaker should be told of the charges against him in a language he understands? I guess not. You should pardon me if I think that's kind of racist.

excon

[CaptainRich]

Ex speak with forked tongue:
You DO believe your govt can help. We both know better than that, Bro.

There is no federal mandate for inter-state cross-checking of drivers license info, but after living in Fl for over a decade, a ticket I got ( and obviously forgot about ) while I lived in NH but while driving in NY... in 1995... all came back to haunt me when I misplaced my current valid Fl license and had requested a duplicate. That NY ticket had to be cleared, then NH wanted their share for suspending me there as well, then I got to pay Fl their due... I could go on...

You are also taking for granted everyone has a comp or internet access.

Translators wouldn't be illegal, just someone else's responsibility.

As far as court? Did you hear about the gays who want to sue a couples website because the site doesn't provide what they request. You cannot require someone or some venue to sell what they don't offer. If we didn't offer translation in court, is it the courts fault you don't speak the language of the country who's laws you just broke?