[ActionJackson]

AJ-
You are welcome to go thru the Trib. & get the mark of the beast. But I have better news.
2Thess.2:7- For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work: but the one who holds back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. (Holy Spirit) . The lawless one=Antichrist.
We are in Heaven in Rev. 4-5. The trumpets Paul is referring to is the Feast of Trumpets.
See article below. We weren't appointed to wrath!
Rapture Info: Bible quotes

I find it fascinating that modern Christians believe that somehow they will be more blessed than the Christians of old when it comes to facing tribulation. Christ and the Apostles were heavily persecuted and faced tribulation. Christians have faced tribulation from the time of Christ through the early stages of the Reformation and beyond. The Romish church massacred Bible believing Christians; Protestants and the Romish church persecuted the Anabaptists. The Anglican church persecuted the followers of Rome and the Protestants. Read Foxes Book of Martyrs. Russian Christians were massacred by the Communist Bolsheviks by the millions. But God loves modern Christians (the ones that sit back and do nothing while millions of babies are aborted) more so modern Christians will receive a special get-out-of-jail-free card. Why should we get special treatment? What have we done that is so great? I do believe that for the elects' sake, the days of tribulation will be shortened. If Christians aren't going to be here, why would we be warned not to accept the mark of the beast? The tribulation will be a major test of faith.

Matthew 5:5, "Blessed are the meek; for they shall inherit the earth."
Proverbs 2:21-22, "For the upright shall dwell in the land, And the perfect shall remain in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, And the transgressors shall be rooted out of it."
Proverbs 10:30, "The righteous shall never be removed; But the wicked shall not inhabit the earth."
Matthew 13:38-43, "The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

The above verse clearly states that both the righteous and the wicked are present at the "end of the world" and that the wicked are uprooted (not the righteous) and cast into the furnace of fire. Oh yes, righteous Christians will certainly be present during the end time tribulation.

[ActionJackson]

AJ-
You are welcome to go thru the Trib. & get the mark of the beast. But I have better news.
2Thess.2:7- For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work: but the one who holds back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. (Holy Spirit) . The lawless one=Antichrist.
We are in Heaven in Rev. 4-5. The trumpets Paul is referring to is the Feast of Trumpets.
See article below. We weren't appointed to wrath!
Rapture Info: Bible quotes

The verse dosen't say that those present will automatically get the mark of the beast during that time. It says that we can't buy or sell without it. Have faith in Christ my sister. When God's children were living in the wilderness for 40 years, God provided the heavenly food called "manna." I just read Revelation 4 and 5. No mention of us being in heaven. I see John's vision being discussed and it appears that he is getting a glimpse of heaven; there is a great deal of praise being given Jesus Christ; and 5:10 says, "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth." I read all that but nothing saying that we were in heaven. Perhaps you were thinking of another book. I do that sometimes.

[Retrotia]

AJ,
John wasn't just given a vision of heaven in Rev 4. He was in heaven. Rev4-After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."
And I have to correct myself about the Beast not showing up till Rev13. No, Rev.6-the 1st seal-the rider leading the pack on the white horse(deceiving) is the Anti-Christ.(bent on conquering.)
You think the mark & the Trib. Is just about not being able to buy & sell without the mark?
You can read about the End of Days by John Hagee. You will see how someone with the gifts of prophecy spells it out.
I wasn't expecting that the extra baptism in the Holy Spirit would make any difference than when I r'cd Christ. But I have noticed how the gifts of the H.S. have given the word of knowledge, and word of wisdom, etc. to me and others when needed. All I can say is that if you believe that Jesus bought and paid for us to believe & be with him-then once we do believe & worship Him here now, that God would appoint us to wrath,especially now that we have the Holy Spirit?
There's a little faith for you there.

BTW- Forgiven asked about the 1,000 yrs. Any thoughts?

[ActionJackson]

AJ,
John wasn't just given a vision of heaven in Rev 4. He was in heaven. Rev4-After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

The verse does say that he was "in the Spirit" so whether he was literally in heaven or in was there in a spiritual sense is yet unclear to me. However the point I was trying to make is that this verse says nothing about Christians being in heaven during the tribulation. You had stated earlier that Rev. 4 and 5 proved that they were.

And I have to correct myself about the Beast not showing up till Rev13. No, Rev.6-the 1st seal-the rider leading the pack on the white horse(deceiving) is the Anti-Christ.(bent on conquering.)

The beast is (until I see evidence to the contrary) the New World Order and it IS bent on conquering the world. It is currently working diligently to dismantle all Christian institutions. It strives to remove all references to Christ from the public domain. The prevailing and underlying philosophy of the New World Order is secular humanism coupled with the false theory of evolution which are diametrically opposed to the tenets of Christianity. Therefore, we agree that the beast system is anti-Christ in its philosophy and wants world control but that doesn't mean that Christians won't be present during their future reign of terror. It's happening as we speak and we are still here.

You think the mark & the Trib. is just about not being able to buy & sell without the mark?

I never once said that. Not once. You are reading things into my words. I said that just because a person is present during the period of time when people are accepting the mark of the beast doesn't mean that everyone present will accept the mark of the beast. The beast will attempt to see to it that everyone accepts the mark; however, not everyone will. Revelation 16:2, "And the first (angel) went and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image." Revelation 16:6, "For they have shed the blood of the saints and prophets, and Thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy." According to the above verses, those with the mark are punished for the shedding of the blood of the saints. Therefore, those who accepted the mark persecute those who did not.

You can read about the End of Days by John Hagee.

I've heard John Hagee preach. I really like the fiery delivery of his message but can't accept his conclusions. He teaches a "rapture of the saints" theory which simply isn't taught in the Bible. It might appear that it's there if you twist a little here and tweak a little there but I prefer the straight forward Word of God. No twisting or tweaking will do.

I wasn't expecting that the extra baptism in the Holy Spirit would make any difference than when I r'cd Christ. But I have noticed how the gifts of the H.S. have given the word of knowledge, and word of wisdom, etc. to me and others when needed.

Repentence followed by baptism will do wonders for a person's soul.

All I can say is that if you believe that Jesus bought and paid for us to believe & be with him-then once we do believe & worship Him here now, that God would appoint us to wrath,especially now that we have the Holy Spirit?

His wrath will not be appointed to the saints but to those who worship the beast. The saints will be present but not affected by His wrath. The tribulation isn't a punishment for the faithful in Christ but a cleansing of an unclean earth filled with evil men.

There's a little faith for you there.

I'll take your word for that.

BTW- Forgiven asked about the 1,000 yrs. Any thoughts?

I'll start looking for my notes on that subject. I'm trying to cover an awful lot in a short time. I'm answering a bunch of questions sent to me by my niece as I'm anwering these posts. I haven't read so much Bible in such a short time for years. It's a good thing.

Thanks for your resonses. I hope you don't hate me or not agreeing with you.

[Retrotia]

AJ-
I do disagree with your interpretation of Rev. 16:2 & 16:4. You took the verses out of context.
Yes, these people broke out with sores by the first angel's bowl of wrath(not the 3rd)
The 3rd angel is the one who speaks about how just His judgments are-in vs. 16:4- is saying about the prophets & saints blood- because these who had the mark were unbelievers & killed saints & prophets. So they are deserving. I see no problem so far.
Then, the anti-christ is around on a low-key scale because that is the devil's influence now. The meaning of 2Thess2-Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come, until rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed for destruction. He will set himself up in God's temple, proclaiming to be God. (peace treaty trick with Israel)
Babylon the harlet repesents all the paganism ,false religions(new age too) All the unbelieving all considered one big idolatry(adultery) to Jesus' name.

So, we could go on & on like some other discussion forums! I wish to discuss the millennial
Kingdom when you think you might be able to.
I'm hoping when my pastor concludes on Revelation, she will be preaching on this subject because she's got it on her blackboard, so the subject may be coming soon.

[Forgiven]

I'm enjoying this discussion. Thanks

[ActionJackson]

I'm enjoying this discussion. Thanks

I am too. If it wasn't already 40 minutes past my bed time, I would just keep going. There is so much to discuss and it affects all the world. I think it's important that we understand the truth and the events that await us in the future.

Before I go, some food for thought. If it's true that God will rapture Christians away before the tribulation but you're like me and don't believe that it will happen, then I really have nothing to lose. I won't go to hell for not believing in a rapture. However, if you truly believe that we will be raptured before the tribulation but you end up finding yourself in the middle of the great tribulation, will you be spiritually ready? I think that Christians really need to study this issue. It's a biggy in my opinion.

Good night. I'll see you all tomorrow. AJ

[Tessy777]

AJ,

Now HOW did I know you wouldn't believe in the rapture. Dude! You are messed up real bad. He will NEVER leave his bride to go through HIS WRATH. Christains have gone through horrible things for centuries. But the tribulation period isn't going to compare to it.

[cassini]

After the 1000years of kingdom of heaven in earth , after then devil would be loosed , says bible, what it means. Are the old earth life repeating , means the life with sin

[poppa0777]

AJ,

Now HOW did I know you wouldn't believe in the rapture. Dude! You are messed up real bad. He will NEVER leave his bride to go thru HIS WRATH. Christains have gone thru horrible things for centuries. But the tribulation period isn't gonna compare to it.

Hi Tessy & AJ,
Tessy, I'm not so sure we won't go through at least part of the tribulation. I understand your reasoning as to how we're not appointed to wrath, but along with AJ I too believe we will be here for part of it... up to the first 1/2.

[ActionJackson]

AJ,

Now HOW did I know you wouldn't believe in the rapture. Dude! You are messed up real bad. He will NEVER leave his bride to go thru HIS WRATH. Christains have gone thru horrible things for centuries. But the tribulation period isn't gonna compare to it.

You and I may be already dead and buried when the end occurs but Christians will be present when that time comes. Apparently, you didn't read the Bible verses that made that clear (4 or 5 posts above). Someone needs to start a thread on the false theory of the rapture. I love discussing it and have debated pro-rapturists for years. My sister is a staunch believer in the rapture and I am just as staunchly opposed to it.

The difference between those who believe it and those who don't is that those who don't generally trust the Bible more than their favorite TV evangelist; whereas, those who do believe in the rapture are fond of saying, "well my pastor said." Just because the pastor of a mega church that has 25 TV cameras broadcasting to 500 countries from a skyscraper made of stained glass says that there will be a rapture doesn't mean he has the foggiest idea what he's talking about.

Search the Scriptures.

[Retrotia]

The Rapture & the Second coming are 2 separate events. The Second coming is when Jesus comes as the Lion of Judah. The rapture only believers will be hearing the trumpet call. Even people who have died & have been cremated will instantly have their molecules come together.
In Rev.5:5-14- The 7 spirits( the 7 churches) are symbolically worn by the Lamb.
So, look for me in Rev7. I'll be the one in the white robe with the palm branch in my hand with the great multitude!

[poppa0777]

The Rapture & the Second coming are 2 separate events. The Second coming is when Jesus comes as the Lion of Judah. The rapture only believers will be hearing the trumpet call. Even people who have died & have been cremated will instantly have their molecules come together.
In Rev.5:5-14- The 7 spirits( the 7 churches) are symbolically worn by the Lamb.
So, look for me in Rev7. I'll be the one in the white robe with the palm branch in my hand with the great multitude!

Poppa0777 agrees that the rapture (which will take place whether people believe it or not) and the 2nd coming are two totally separate events. No one is infallible in these areas (except of course Jesus Christ) but after over 30 years of serious bible study and prayer, that is what I believe. And you better believe I don't believe it because of what ANY preacher says.
Anyway... God bless every one of you!

[Tessy777]

I'm wit you poppa0777, I think it is a pre-trib rapture though... no way we go through any of it. But we can agree to disagree.

[poppa0777]

I'm wit ya poppa0777, i think it is a pre-trib rapture though...no way we go thru any of it. but we can agree to disagree.

Tessy777,
What do you think of this...
(2Th 2:1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
(2Th 2:2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (the Rapture)
(2Th 2:3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; {so how can the Rapture take place until after the Antichrist is revealed}?
(2Th 2:4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(2Th 2:5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
(2Th 2:6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
(2Th 2:7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(2Th 2:8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(2Th 2:9) Even him,(Antichrist) whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
(2Th 2:10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(2Th 2:11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(2Th 2:12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(2Th 2:13) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

I am not trying to change your beliefs, only give you something to ponder.
Scripture is very clear that these things must take place (the abomination of desolation) Daniel 9:27.
Poppa0777

[ActionJackson]

When will the New Jerusalem descend from heaven and we will be living with God. Will it be after the 1000 year reign of Christ or after the tribulation (before the 1000 year reign of Christ). In other words; will the 1000 year reign of Christ be in the New Jerusalem?

In the book of Revelation, the tribulation period is covered in chapters 6-19. There are many discriptive events that affect Christians and non-Christians alike. The beast and the false prophet gain power and influence and deceive many. As they tactfully gain control of the world they gain control of people. A time comes when the beast system requires a mark on the forehead or on the hand if a person desires to buy or sell. Everything is controlled by the state. Some believe that the mark on the forehead is a metaphor for belief in the system (mark on the forehead) or for someone who willingly works for the beast to further its goals (mark on the wrist or hand). I think it could be both. Obvioulsy, if you are a willing worker for or believe in the system, you wouldn't mind taking a literal mark. Anyway, after the tribulation (Revelation chapter 20), Christ is the reigning King of all nations and sits in his thrown. The saints who were killed for His namesakes during the tribulation go through what is called "the first resurrection" and rule with Christ. Satan is bound for this period of a thousand years and those who survived the tribulation will re-populate the earth. At the end of the thousand years, Satan is loosed for a season to deceive the inhabitors of the earth once again. He forms the army of God and Magog who will go to war with the saints. Satan and his army will lose and will be cast into the lake of fire. We will then live in a perfect world for ever and ever after that.

The rapture theory if nonsensical and was first introduced by a girl who was a bit "touched." A jesuit priest jumped on this girl's "vision" and created the rapture doctrine based on sketchy information. Unfortunately, many (not all) neo-Christians have been swayed by this fantasy doctrine and will be sorry in the years to come.

[Tessy777]

Poppa0777,

I see what you are saying... give me some time to look the things up I need and I will respond properly.

AJ- The Apostle Paul is where we get the rapture.. he didn't call it rapture but he explained it. It will happen whether you think it is a fantasy or not.

[poppa0777]

Poppa0777,

I see what you are saying...give me some time to look the things up I need and I will respond properly.

AJ- The Apostle Paul is where we get the rapture..he didn't call it rapture but he explained it. It will happen whether you think it is a fantasy or not.

Poppa0777 agrees with you Tessy777!

[Retrotia]

In the book of Revelation, the tribulation period is covered in chapters 6-19. There are many discriptive events that affect Christians and non-Christians alike. The beast and the false prophet gain power and influence and deceive many. As they tactfully gain control of the world they gain control of people. A time comes when the beast system requires a mark on the forehead or on the hand if a person desires to buy or sell. Everything is controlled by the state. Some believe that the mark on the forehead is a metaphor for belief in the system (mark on the forehead) or for someone who willingly works for the beast to further its goals (mark on the wrist or hand). I think it could be both. Obvioulsy, if you are a willing worker for or believe in the system, you wouldn't mind taking a literal mark. Anyway, after the tribulation (Revelation chapter 20), Christ is the reigning King of all nations and sits in his thrown. The saints who were killed for His namesakes during the tribulation go through what is called "the first resurrection" and rule with Christ. Satan is bound for this period of a thousand years and those who survived the tribulation will re-populate the earth. At the end of the thousand years, Satan is loosed for a season to deceive the inhabitors of the earth once again. He forms the army of God and Magog who will go to war with the saints. Satan and his army will lose and will be cast into the lake of fire. We will then live in a perfect world for ever and ever after that.

The rapture theory if nonsensical and was first introduced by a girl who was a bit "touched." A jesuit priest jumped on this girl's "vision" and created the rapture doctrine based on sketchy information. Unfortunately, many (not all) neo-Christians have been swayed by this fantasy doctrine and will be sorry in the years to come.

It wasn't a girl who came up with the rapture view. It was a prophetess from a Catholic Apostolic Church in 1830 Scotland.
I'm not commenting on what you wrote about the millennium(except that you failed to describe where "we" will be during that time)
As far as a rapture, well, the gathering up to meet the Lord in the air is not the same as Jesus' coming the 2nd time. The horrendous events take place mostly in the last 3& 1/2 yrs. When the Antichrist sets himself up in the temple & claims to be God. You really need to read Daniel & other Old Testament prophecies in addition to the N.T. to get a grasp on the book of Revelation.
And the Holy Spirit working in the Church is what must be taken out of the way before
The anti-christ is revealed. The falling away from the faith has already happened & is happening in the end-times.
Christians are split on whether we will be caught up in the air (this is for those living at the time) before the 7yr Trib. Or before the last 31/2yrs.
When you study Rev. you will see that there are only late converts, the protected 144,000,
& the protected 2 witnesses from Rev. 6 on to 19.
We already came out of the Great Tribulation by Ch.7. Whether we experienced whatever was before in Ch.6, maybe, because you have to be in something to come out of it. But don't confuse the 7 trumpet with the last trumpet. The trumpets are judgments.
I really think you should at least look into sources that describe the book of Revelation.
You will see that it will be like no other time in history of the earth. There will not be anything controlled my friend, people will be running for their lives. The size of the boulders of hail alone with fire on people, from just one of the angels.
I have to go. You can read up on Revelation yourself.(not kidding)
Peace.

[ActionJackson]

The Rapture & the Second coming are 2 separate events. The Second coming is when Jesus comes as the Lion of Judah. The rapture only believers will be hearing the trumpet call. Even people who have died & have been cremated will instantly have their molecules come together.
In Rev.5:5-14- The 7 spirits( the 7 churches) are symbolically worn by the Lamb.
So, look for me in Rev7. I'll be the one in the white robe with the palm branch in my hand with the great multitude!

I agree that the "rapture" is something different than the Second Coming. The Second Coming is biblical and, therefore, the only of the two I am interested in. If you read a little more deeply, you will see that Christ is present when we "change in a twinkle of an eye" and receive our glorified bodies.

I Thessalonians 4:16, "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and WITH THE TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

The dead are raised at the same time that Christ returns. This will occur at the Seventh and Last trump spoken of in Revelation.