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labman · May 31, 2007, 10:16 AM

I have deleted 2 allegations about commercial dog chow. They were inserted into a threads that were neither appropriate for such, or for me to challenge them there. Time after time I have challenged people on their allegations against commercial dog and advocating alternative diets. I always ask for real proof to their allegations. What I get is proof of what is on the labels of any bag of dog food, plus anecdotal evidence, and links to sites full of emotional appeal and hyperventilating over ingredients. Is it asking for just one controlled study proving the allegations? No, that is not how the junk science behind it all works. Maybe a vet here and there believes in it, but the AVMA condemns it along with the FDA and the CDC. Until you can post something here more than allegations proved by baseless allegations, please refrain from sticking your allegations in inappropriate threads.

One of the more extensive and objective web sites I have seen on dog nutrition is Woodhaven Labradors Training-Nutrition Articles It has to be objective since I disagree with part of what they say. It is a huge site, and I have only poked around the edges. All I know about them is what I have read on the site. It has links to many other sites it would take weeks to ferret out who is behind them and what agenda they may have. I really like to know something about who is behind a website. That is why I often post links to organizations such as AVMA or AKC. I at least know who is behind them and their agendas and what filters I need to run their information through. I don't know anything about the sites Woodhaven links to discussing dogs on the BARF diet suddenly dying of pancreitus.

So if you have proof, lets see it here. If not, quit bringing it up in threads on other subjects.

bushg · May 31, 2007, 11:05 AM

Kiseil5 Dog hit by car, spoiled with human food may 23 2007. You posted to me and I quote " under the rules of the site, everybody is entitled to post their opinion. Everybody else is entitled to post factual rebuttals." end quote So as of may 31, this no longer holds true?. lol simply because it was an opinion that differs on yours about dog food... unbelievable... "glad it wasn't my post... but pawsdogdaycare... and what is more interesting you removed it and did not post it on his/her post that you had removed it. And you insinuate that it was for you to challenge... I think not... I haven't seen this person recommend the barf diet... but I did see them mentioning that people that feed their dogs people food makes them overweight so Labman lets be fair. Leave the chicken wing comment in there. May America continued to be blessed with freedom of speech. Have a nice day

labman · May 31, 2007, 11:33 AM

You have missed my point. It only drags the thread off topic when somebody posts controversial material in a thread having little to do their point. If people want to debate alternative diets, they are free to do so. I don't think it is helpful to inject debate on them into every thread. The chicken bone thread is better off without challenges to unprovable slams on commercial dog chow. I am not going to leave unscientific allegations go unchallenged. You think I don't have the right to disagree with what I have good cause to see as nonsense? This thread is about proof of the danger of commercial dog chow. Got any?

bushg · May 31, 2007, 11:36 AM

No ima oprah follower... i say let people feed their dogs what they want and stop trying to be a dicator and rude to everyone.. people are so damn afraid to stand up to your nasty snide comments... now remove this, i have sen you get off topic in many threads.. but you ignore your bad behavior. Fwhen i agree with you im woman enough to say it and when i disagree i say that as well . By the way who injects them in every thread... prove that statement. By the way good dialouge makes people pay attention... and sometimes people learn something from things , they research, talk to their vets... etc.. stp trying to be so controlling. It makes them think esp. if there is a little conflict in opinions... not the same hum drum every thread... oh labman ur the alpha you know everything thanks sweety babe... boring people tune that crap out and don't bother researching anything whether it be dog food ,breeding, choke chains spaying and neutering.. etc i'm done so now you can delete it or whatever you choose you are the moderator after all... p.s your even disrespectfull to a super moderator infering that he caused a new member to stop posting, how you maintain your alpha position i don't know

labman · May 31, 2007, 12:30 PM

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. I think the above damages you more than me.

pawsdogdaycare · May 31, 2007, 03:11 PM

Interesting, and I do love a challenge.. So labman I will accept this debate and let's see where it goes... As for the chicken bone comment.. The poor woman's dog had eaten a chicken bone.. and was worried about possible negative effects or her pets health.. by pointing out that a raw chicken bone is nutritious and that she should not worry was not the advocation of a specific diet.. it was an opinion and directed to ease her worry, as there are people.. many in fact that do feed raw food... (which is their choice).. Not trying to steer the topic at the point just alleviate the woman's concerns.. but if you choose to engage in this topic.. I will gladly banter with you here.. good day sir, pawsdogdaycare..

pawsdogdaycare · May 31, 2007, 04:02 PM

Since we have asked for a factual basis.. let's first consider business economics... the price of beef...

At this time last year, live cattle traded at 64 cents per pound; now it's just over a dollar. And retail prices at some stores have shot up about 40 cents per pound.

Now let's compare that to the price of dog food..

In dog food, sales at discounters rose 31.3% in dollars and 26.8% in volume, as reflected in an average price increase of 1 cent per pound,[/COLOR] InfoScan reported. Conversely, dollar volume at supermarkets fell 1.7% in dollars and 0.5% in pounds, reflecting a 1 cent decline in average price. Largely on the strength of Wal-Mart's private label 'Ol Roy brand, private label dry dog food accounted for $196 million of the $323.7 million total attributed to discounters.

The basic economics of this equation do not add up.. Which would lead one to believe that the quantity of beef in commercial food is dropping and or the quality.. as well as substituting with other ingredients to keep the cost and a nominal rate for the consumer..
(ie.. they are using less beef) which means that the protein content required by the FDA to commercially market dogfood would have been to low...
So the bean counters at the pet food manufactures came up with a brillaint idea... let's add more grain.. but use grain that has been laced with melamine.. which boosts the protein content of the food.. below you will find the definition of the chemical and it's use..

Expert Chemical Analysis Inc. (ECA) has responded to the growing need for testing animal and human foods for the toxic chemicals: melamine and cyanuric acid. Melamine and cyanuric acid are industrial chemicals that have been used as additives to boost the apparent protein content of high protein grain products that have been imported to be used in animal food products.

Now what's very interesting is no sooner did this happen than pets started suffering ill effects...

By the end of March, veterinary organizations reported more than 100 pet deaths amongst nearly 500 cases of kidney failure[1], and experts expected the death toll to number in the thousands, with one online database already self-reporting as many as 3,600 deaths as of April 11.[7][2][3] The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has received reports of approximately 8500 animal deaths, including at least 1950 cats and 2200 dogs who have died after eating contaminated food.

The recalled Brands..

Prescription Diet m/d Feline Dry Food (FDA Press Release, March 30, 2007)
Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc. Select Science Diet Savory Cuts Cat Food (March 17, 2007)

Nestlé Purina PetCare Company
Alpo® Brand Prime Cuts In Gravy Canned Dog Food (March 30, 2007)
Mighty Dog® 5.3 Ounce Pouch Products (March 16, 2007)
Sunshine Mills, Inc.

Sunshine Mills, Inc. Issues Voluntary Nationwide Recall of Certain Branded and Private Label Branded Dog Biscuits (April 5, 2007)

Natural Balance Pet Foods, Inc.
Natural Balance Pet Foods, Inc. Issues A Voluntary Nationwide Recall on Specific Venison Dog and Cat Food Products (April 17, 2007)

Cereal Byproducts Company
Cereal Byproducts Company Announces the Voluntary Nationwide Recall of Rice Protein Concentrate Produced in China (May 4, 2007)

Royal Canin USA
Eight Sensible Choice Dry Dog Food Products, Seven Kasco Dry Dog And Cat Food Products Recalled Nationwide by Royal Canin USA (May 11, 2007)
Royal Canin USA Announces the Voluntary Nationwide Recall of its Dry Pet Food Products Containing Rice Protein Concentrate (April 19, 2007)

CJ Foods
Blue Buffalo Company Announces Voluntary Recall of One Production Run of Spa Select Kitten Dry Food (April 19, 2007)

SmartPak
SmartPak Canine Voluntarily Recalls LiveSmart Adult Lamb and Brown Rice Formula (May 3, 2007)
SmartPak Canine Voluntarily Recalls LiveSmart Weight Management Formula (April 25, 2007)
LiveSmart Weight Management Chicken and Brown Rice Recall (April 20, 2007)

Chenango Valley Pet Foods
Chenango Valley Pet Foods Expands Voluntary Nationwide Recall of Certain Pet Foods (May 17, 2007)
Chenango Valley Pet Foods Issues Voluntarily Nationwide Recall of Certain Pet Foods (April 26, 2007)

American Nutrition, Inc.
American Nutrition, Inc. Issues Voluntary Recall (April 26, 2007)
Blue Buffalo Company, Ltd Issues Nationwide Recall of "Blue" Canned Dog Foods, "Blue Spa Select" Canned Cat Foods and "Blue" Dog Treats Manufactured at American Nutrition, Inc. (April 27, 2007)
Sierra Pet Products, LLC Issues Nationwide Recall of "Harmony Farms" Canned Dog Foods, "Harmony Farms" Canned Cat Foods and "Harmony Farms" Dog Treats Manufactured at American Nutrition, Inc. (April 27, 2007)
Natural Balance Pet Foods, Inc. Recalls Products in Response to American Nutrition Inc. Pet Food Recall (April 27, 2007)
Diamond Pet Food Withdraws Products in Response to American Nutrition Inc. Pet Food Recall (April 26, 2007)

Diamond Pet Food
Nutra Nuggets 40 Lb. Lamb Meal and Rice Formula Recalled Due to Cross Contamination (May 23, 2007)

and growing...

Simple economics... the price of all the supplies have increased dramatically, yet the cost of the end product has only increased nominally..
Petroleum products which are use to produce, the ink, the clear plastic freshness liner in the bags.. as well as fuel the trucks that deliver supplies, meaning shipping prices increased.. (fuel prices have increase by nearly 60% since last year)

The cost of paper- which is used to make the bags.. the cost of electricity which is used to process and manufacture the products,
The cost of steel-which is used to manufacture the canned varieties.. combined with a 40 cent minimum wage increase in the state of Florida alone.. Meaning drivers, baggers, stockers, etc get paid more.. yet the cost of dog food has only risen slightly..

One would have to ask how this is possible.. it's easy when the quality of the products has been reduced, or supplemented with cheaper available alternatives with no concern for the well being of the pets...

I will continue this banter later, I have to close the daycare for the evening.. till morning.. where will will address or attempt to address if there is any factual basis to the health benefits of one vs the other...

MrPippin · May 31, 2007, 04:27 PM

It would seem that the BARF diet by default would be considered safer than commercial dog foods. I haven't heard of 8500 deaths attributed to Barf diet. Perhaps if you had allowed an open discussion on diets some of the owners of the 8500 dogs that died would have opted for a different diet for their dogs. Open discussion is always preferable to censorship. MrPippin

labman · May 31, 2007, 06:43 PM

I have and will continue to delete material that will result in hijacking threads that have nothing to do with diets for the purpose of advocating alternative diets. You are free to post your unscientific views condemned by the AVMA, FDA, CDC, and most veterinarians elsewhere.

labman · May 31, 2007, 08:01 PM

Pawsdaycare, did you read the rules as I suggested? You seemed to have missed #5. I gave you a pass on #9 because you were new.

5. Do not post content that is significantly equivalent to content found elsewhere on the internet if it can be linked to.

9. Do not advertise or spam. You are welcome to include information and links in your signature to a reasonable extent, but do not advertise in posts.

This was found at

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/announcements/

Originally Posted by RickJ

Please ask your questions here on the public boards rather than Private Messaging individual members.

We have numerous knowledgible members and experts online at various times, so posting your question(s) on the forum assures you that someone will see it faster than sending to someone via PM.

In addition, some members just don't use Private Messaging.

If you PM a member a question it may or may not be answerd, or even seen.

Thank you.

bushg · May 31, 2007, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by labman

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. I think the above damages you more than me.

Bravo... you may be right... ask me if I care what people think of me.. I'll sleep good tonight... knowing that I'm honest with my opinion and don't ask anyone to stroke my ego by agreeing with me... now don't stop posting threads because of this Labman or people may blame me and want me to say I'm sorry to you. OK sweety have a nice night talk to you tomorrow

labman · May 31, 2007, 09:58 PM

Dream on gal. I am made of tougher stuff. Over the years I have outlasted many people with no respect for others training and experience.

bushg · May 31, 2007, 10:32 PM

I ran poor doc will off or so you said... anyway... I was hoping... ".shucks". p.s I have agreed with most of the stuff you say... just not how you belittle people. Most of us are not traning service dogs and hell some of the people just want to throw a bowl of "chow "at their dog, pet them, and call it a day. Some people like me want to pull them out of pounds and off the streets and put some meat on their bones and love and do the best we know how by them. And you have to get so pissy when someone ask simple question or disagree's with you. And start accusing them of breeding and overfeeding, and being brainless and just palin old stupid... because we have not been trained by your fancy dog school (Which I'm sure your great at) or spent 8 yrs in college becoming a vet. That's my problem with you boy. I think I have gotten my point across so I'll bid this thread adios. Go grab me some cats have them spayed/ or neutered try and find them a home and leave you alone. I'll feed my (spayed andneutered) dogs ( my Way) and play with them take'm for walks and rides. But remember I'll be watching you. Go get him paws... I'll leave you some ratings Labman along the way

grammadidi · May 31, 2007, 10:57 PM

The AVMA "condemns" alternative diets for dogs, Labman? I know that they caution against feeding table scraps in lieu of commercial dog foods and indicate that it is difficult to match the nutritious values of commercial dog foods when preparing home cooked meals for your pets. However, in a Press Release on April 7, 2007 the AVMA recommended that people consult with their veterinarians and research appropriate diets for their pet. In that same press release there is reference to "Home-Prepared Dog & Cat Diets: the Healthful Alternative" by Dr. Donald Strombeck as a good cookbook for pet owners who insist upon an alternative diet. There is also a recommendation to a website ( http://www.petdiets.com/ ) which it is recommended as "one the best Web sites on home-cooked pet diets."

Granted, the AVMA feels that the commercial foods are hard to match because they are well balanced diets that are formulated by professionals, however, it doesn't sound like they were condemning alternative diets. More than anything I think that they are adopting "if it ain't broke don't fix it" attitudes with commercial pet food diets to discourage inadequate diets that many well-meaning pet owners may revert to without adequate information, veterinary input and research.

Holistic diets are gradually becoming more and more readily accepted by the veterinary community. I know myself that I would much prefer to be able to open a bag of commercially prepared dog food for the dogs that are in my care, however I know breeders who have been using raw food or similar diets for more than 5 generations and their dogs are some of the top in the country, so I suspect we all have a lot to learn. All I know is that I prefer the convenience of the commercially prepared dog food and until my particular brand is removed from the market I will continue to use it.

Regardless, I felt that your words that the "AVMA condemns it" were a wee bit strong. There are not enough controls on pet foods and perhaps that will change in view of the huge amount of recalled foods. One can hope...

Didi

pawsdogdaycare · Jun 1, 2007, 04:27 AM

Labman, you have yet to respond to the current quality of commercial chow.. You have however deviated off topic to banter with bushg over turf wars.. And I believe as you put it you like for the threads to stay on topic.. As for rule 5 and 9 I aplogize for that.. as I was putting togther a well formed excerpts to deliver just the pertinant facts.. and I haven't posted a web addy and some time after my posts. So if you would be so kind as to indulge, I would love to hear your opinion regarding the econimics of the pet food industry.. Thanks... i.e... your turn.

MrPippin · Jun 1, 2007, 05:27 AM

I'm new so maybe I am having trouble understanding Labman. But let me see if I have the rules right.

1. I can't post anything unless it can be backed up with proof regarding diet of dogs.

2. If that proof is found elsewhere on the internet, I can't post it either.

Labman I here that Chavez is looking for a manager to run his new TV station in Venezuela. I really think you have the qualifications to fill that job nicely. If you play your cards right down there you may even be able to censor the other Free TV station or knock them off the air as well. It seems you want to silence anyone, and everyone that disagrees with your narrow scope of thinking. It is easier for you to remove the post of those who disagree with you than it is to win by debating them. Small minds think small.
MrPippin

DocWill · Jun 1, 2007, 06:45 AM

IM courious if the barf diet even has 8500 consistent consumers to compare with others. Anyone that is experienced at all with Veterinary educational funding is aware that Hills donates money like they are Donald Trump or something to produce doctors. So naturally I am educated in there product and Rx based food. When I suggest a diet to an owner and explain how it works in favor of the pets medical condition its usually Hills, some buy it some don't. When I exam every patient that comes in, I always ask them what is the diet, and honestly don't ever recall anyone using it, so I don't know much about it other than a tiny insert I saw next to an article on IBD. "Barf" caught my eye so I read it. Very similar sales practices are used on dog treats. Most of those eye catching packages have taught me a lot about pancreatitis and food allergies. Funny now I am reflecting on some situations in the past. Some dogs will eat anything even if it could kill them, some dogs won't eat life saving food even if it kills them. Result for me is simple. Suggest Rx diets to those who need it, pray like mad the dog likes it and the owner has sufficient funds to provide it. Those that don't usually return with the same sick dog, or they find a new vet to complain I don't know what I am doing. Its not like the surrounding community Vets don't know each other. We communicate regularly to discuss cases and new tests, meds, etc. Meeting the pet and owners needs can sometimes be more difficult than the original condition that brought about the visit. If it meets the pets needs and he likes it. I don't care what the name of it is. If it's a Rx diet to keep your male cats ability to urinate normally, pray he likes it. I typed all of this while attempting to gargle peanut butter for a pure scientific break through.

labman · Jun 1, 2007, 08:12 AM

I do not intend to take time to debate things here point by point. The economics of commercial dog chow? Millions of dogs are thriving on competitively priced commercial chows. So what does your analysis really prove?

BARF and raw diets come up here and elsewhere time after time. We have a horrible scourge of antibiotic resistant bacteria. I have found that no matter what facts and logic I post, there is resistance to it. At one point I noticed holistic is spelled without the w like hole rather than like whole. It recently dawned on me that it is like holy, belief without proof. I think it is dishonest to post as fact, minority beliefs with no foundation of facts. Yes I go against the conventional view in many cases, but I have facts to back it.

I want to make sure people understand the lack of testing behind the raw diets and allegations against commercial dog chow. As I recently posted elsewhere, those wanting both sides of the raw diet controversy can go to Dog Foods - Or What In The World Should I Buy? The BARF discussion starts below what sounds to me like some very good information.

You don't need to look further than the banner ads here to see people are making money on raw diets. Are they somehow more to be trusted than the large corporations? I trust the people giving away dogs more than anybody selling anything. Twice my newsletter has included an anti BARF article.

Emland · Jun 1, 2007, 08:26 AM

I have a hard enough time keeping my dogs from eating cat crap - I sure won't feed them BARF!

Sorry - just trying to lighten the mood. Who knew dog food could rile people up so?

pawsdogdaycare · Jun 1, 2007, 08:27 AM

I am confused as to where we deviate from confirmed deaths.. to allegations? Do you secretly work for purina, or just hoping for a sponsorship... you seem to without question totally ignore any facts... Apparantly the holocost did not happen either? just seems odd you are such a staunch advocate for major dog food manufacturers, with little regard for the recent truths..