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longjohns · May 29, 2007, 04:08 PM

I have just purchased a new Tempstar 4 ton 13 seer, 78 afeu
1410A refrigerant. Model # PGX 348080K01A1.

I had this thing installed in January, the heater worked fine. The ac won't work right.
The guy that installed it has been here 5 times. He is at a loss as to what the problem is.
The air is very humid, very humid. The air is not cool.
Any ideas ?
Thanks for your help!
Rebecca

hvacservicetech_07 · May 29, 2007, 06:42 PM

Is it low on freon? I'm sure he has checked, but I had to ask, there could be many different problems, has it cooled at all?

hvac1000 · May 29, 2007, 07:58 PM

I hope this guy knows about 410A refrigerant. If not installed properly (lines flow with nitrogen when brazing) lines left open to long (moisture problem) or and poor Vac pulled before charging there will be problems. Also the operating pressures will be different on 410A than R-22. If the guy that sold it to you does not know what is wrong then you should tell him you are going to call another professional to fix it and he will have to pay the bill.

Almost all HVAC business has a one year complete warranty. If I were you I would read all the paperwork that he gave you. Then get it fixed right.

longjohns · May 29, 2007, 11:33 PM

Thank you all for responding to my question.
Yes the guy did check the freon- puron. He added some on the first try to fix it.
The unit has not cooled at all. I tried to use it 3 times before I called him. My complaints were its not cooling and its VERY HUMID in my house.
He has hooked up a lot of gauges and done this for the last 4 days. He is such a nice guy and I know he feels terrible and he would take it out if I ask. He says if this was a R22 he'd know just what to do. Lucky me... :(
He called some rep for the company from my house and they in turn called the factory, who told him to check this and that. But its not improved. That was 3 days ago.
So today from my house he called another installer from the next town over and asked that guy to meet him here at my house and see if he can fix the problem.
Anything I should say??
I printed out the info the second posted here wrote... "If not installed properly (lines flow with nitrogen when brazing) lines left open to long (moisture problem) or and poor Vac pulled before charging there will be problems."
Maybe that will help...
Any other tips would be appreciated.
Rebecca

hvac1000 · May 30, 2007, 03:37 AM

Rebecca. Unless you are made of money I would recommend you tell him to take it out and refund your money so you can find a company that knows what they are doing. 6000.00 is a lot of $$ to throw away and eventually you will have to start paying someone to get it fixed over and over again.

This person could be the nicest guy in the world but he does not know what he is doing. He lied to you when he told you he could sell and install a system for your home. If I were you I would be mad as heXX right now because I hate to get ripped off.

I have been in this industry for many many years and I hate when this happened. It gives all of us HVAC people a bad name.

longjohns · May 30, 2007, 10:32 AM

Yeah I am already feeling all that your wrote hvac1000, I am worried that I will have problems down the road. I am worried that the 6 thousand dollar unit won't be used to its full potential.
I don't have 6 grand to throw away. In fact I charged this thing and it will take me forever to pay it off.
How does one go about finding someone in the first place who knows how to install this kind of unit ? In other words where did I go wrong? Is there some kind of degree that one has to have ?
If I have this thing pulled what would you recommend I get? I have 2000 square feet that need to be cooled & heated. I have very high ceilings with a open floor plan that need to be heated in the winter. I live in Northern Ca and it snows here and gets cold.
I am thinking about replacing this tempstar with a R22. I had an R22, it was 20 years old and did a wonderful job heating and cooling. It broke down a couple of times and this guy- (same guy that put the new unit in.) said in time I may want to get something more efficient. Last January the heater wouldn't work. I called ' the man' and he tried to fix the problem- which was the heat exchange coils ( something like that) had corroded and he couldn't replace them. He prefers the R22 by far but for some reason he pushed this unit. The cost was 5,625 and that includes labor. I have a no hassle warranty on this 4 ton tempstar- at least that was pitched to me at the time of purchase. I am giving the guy and the man from the next town today to solve this. If they don't I want it pulled out. But now what?? What should I get?? HELP PLEASE!
Thank you so much for your time and your expertise.
Rebecca

mr.yet · May 30, 2007, 10:49 AM

Have the installer fix the problem or remove it and replace it with another unit of equal value, at no cost to you.

The installer is most likely insurance and bonded, if he fails to comply file a claim against his bond and insurance.

hvac1000 · May 30, 2007, 11:25 AM

Reply when the other guys have has a look at it and you have more information.

JackT · May 30, 2007, 04:41 PM

It's obvious that your service tech doesn't know what he's doing. I believe PGX is a package system with gas heat, (not sure) if so, he shouldn't have had to do any brazing. I would be concerned with what kind of damage has already been done to the compressor.

longjohns · May 30, 2007, 05:10 PM

Ok so the new guy shows up with the old guy... They have been here for 5 hours.
The new guy is baffled by what is going on. He says that the situation is totally unacceptable.
They have changed the air speed a lot. Still its not right.
I hope your not right jack T that the compressor may be comprised. Neither guy did brazing.
The unit was turn keyed I guess you could say.

Ok I have grilled the new guy - asked lots of questions. Here is his response- forgive me if I am not to clear... this is like learning a foreign language for me.
First of all I asked the new guy how many of these things has he put in- he said about 13.
He has stated that all settings including the charge was spot on and the only issue
( although not completely assuring) was that the static pressure was about 0.85 ( how am I doing? I took notes... actually wrote this stuff as he was talking) Then he stated that the return flow was restricted since the 12 ducts in the house ( master quarters has its own separate air and heat system) are only 6 inches and some are 8 inches in diameter and then the cfm air was less then required (? ) (reminder--my tempstar is a 4 ton)
I am dazed and confused- yes I am a blonde but hey we can't all be smart. I am always smart to late...
Any WHO I am not sure how all this relates to the issue of the AC bringing in humidity to the interior of my house??
The guy that sold me the unit is about ready to swap it out. He says he might as well sleep out there next to the unit cause he won't be able to sleep as all he will be thinking about is this problem. I told him " don't make me send the flying monkeys out after him"
So there you have it... by the way the old unit worked great, 6-8 inch ducts didn't matter. Oh yeah the new guy is going to run the specs on the old unit I had and compare them to this unit cause I didn't have this problem with the old unit. I guess he means the 6-8 inch duct work.
What-cha think Mr. hvac1000 and all other experts!
Rebecca

JackT · May 30, 2007, 05:44 PM

Is this unit replacing one that went bad? If so is it the same size (4 ton)? If the one you had replaced is the same size, air flow shouldn't be a factor unless they changed something. They should be able to figure out the problem using the proper equipment. If they have gauges, amperage meter, and thermometers, it shouldn't be hard to come up with a solution. Is the compressor drawing the correct amperage? Does it have the correct charge? Have they added the correct refrigerant? Did they have to add any refrigerant, this is a package unit so they shouldn't have had to unless there was a leak.

Good Luck...

longjohns · May 30, 2007, 05:56 PM

Hi-JackT
Yes that is right that the last unit went bad - it was all corroded...
It was the same size- 4 ton, R22- almost 30 years old.
Yes there was refrigerant added on day two of trying to fix this thing. The installer thought maybe that was the problem- so he bought some puron and added it- which of course didn't fix a darn thing.
I believe the answer to all your questions is YES... compressor is drawing the right amperage- The new guy told me that today. And the charge is correct. Although I heard the word 'static' being thrown around between the two installers. Something about the static pressure being off.
So now what??
Thank you for helping- I really appreciate it. This site is awesome.
Rebecca

hvac1000 · May 30, 2007, 06:24 PM

Rebecca. When you have 4 tons of A/C (48,000 BTU's ) you need to draw in a bunch of air and you also have to discharge that air back into the living area. Static pressure is the amount of resistance there is to the air movement of thew system. Usually to small of a return air and or supply air ducts is the cause for a static problem. The newer units are not as forgiving as the older equiptment when it comes to duct size even if they are the same BTU size.

Lets se what happens when they replace the unit and report back. Personally I doupt if a new unit is going to solve the problem. BTW too much air at high speed can also cause moisture problems. The air does not have enough hang time on the coil and the air also strips the water off the coil and into the air stream.

I hope all works out well.

JackT · May 30, 2007, 07:03 PM

If you replaced a 4 ton unit that worked fine for almost 30 years, there shouldn't be any problem with air flow. This is a package unit with factory matched blower, coil, metering device, factory charge etc. Being a new package system you shouldn't have had to add any refrigerant to the system unless there was a leak. High temperature discharge and humidity could be adjusted by slowing down the blower speed if that was the only issue. I would only guess that you have a refrigeration problem. Even replace the complete unit or recover the refrigerant, pull a good vacuum, replace the filter drier and weigh in the proper charge. If you had a refrigerant leak you may have sucked in air or other contaminates. Air or nitrogen in the system mixed with the refrigerant will cause your symptoms.

hvacservicetech_07 · May 30, 2007, 08:01 PM

Have they inspected the ductwork? Maybe a return collapsed?

hvac1000 · May 30, 2007, 08:30 PM

Hi Jack. In our testing at the university we found that the newer high efficiency units can use all the supply and return air they can get. As you are aware the new 13 SEER and up use larger evaporators and condenser coils. This in turn increases the need for more CFM over the coils. You can see from various factory recommendations what the situation is. Nordyne and other packaged unit manufactures for the modular/mobile homes have asked and received permission for a delay in the efficiency regulations for some of there products. Some of this is due to duct sizing problems associated with the self contained units.

longjohns · May 30, 2007, 09:03 PM

The ducts were inspected by one of the installers and were very sound. I am a bit confused regarding the high humidity tested by the installer- which was about 66% in the air coming into the house. Is this caused by air moving too fast over the these coils? Or is it too slow?
The guys kept changing the blower speed and this changed nothing.
The unit is not being changed YET. I have been told that the way this works is it has to go through some sort of chain of command, for example the original installer has to talk to the rep for this area, then he has to call in a second installer. This has to be done before the installer can talk to the factory or have the factory guys come out. So now they can talk to the factory. The new guy that showed up today said don't worry we are not going to stick you with this problem, we will get to the bottom of this. This is so freakin ridiculous... what the heck, you can't talk to the factory to and get help with one of their products... I should have just called sears. However after hours of research on line I have learned that these units are practically all made by the same companies, (made by two different companies) and they just slap their lable/logo on them.

What would really help me is if you could tell me what to do and I am sure your not into doing that -therefore let me ask for help in another way, if this was your problem what would you do, and you can't be the experts that you are, you are a regular person who doesn't know much. If you were me what would you do??

If you'd switch it out what would you switch it for and why ?( there will be a grade given at the end of the test... kidding)
Replace the entire duct system??
Rebecca

hvac1000 · May 30, 2007, 10:36 PM

First off. There has never been a unit made that cannot be fixed. The problem you have with your system is a lack of knowledgeable people to get it fixed. With that said I believe you should get a new unit since they already played around with the one you have now and they cannot get it to work.

Next option is to get you $$ back and shop somewhere else where they have the knowledge to fix what they sell.

longjohns · May 30, 2007, 10:59 PM

I have just spent the last 3 hours reading about heating and ac units.
I am reading a lot of info on correctly matching the unit to the duct systems. There is a dvd that will calculate out what size unit you should have based on duct size, type of home, roof material, insulation and stuff like that. If you don't calculate this out you will end up with poor air quality, especially HUMIDITY. I know these calculations were not done. Shouldn't this be a law??
I am pissed, and your right hvac, I need to get someone more knowledgeable.
Someone who knows about ducts instead of ducks!
Yup I going to set this right...
I 'll keep you posted. Thank you for all your time.

hvacservicetech_07 · May 30, 2007, 11:17 PM

I would give them one more chance to get this right, EVERYBODY screws up once in awhile, even the guys that have been at it for years.Although, many technicians claim to know it all, they DON'T. If after this visit they don't get you an answer I'd request your money back and removal of the unit, ask around and find a legit trustworthy company, you may even get a better deal. There are many steps to properly size a system, very few companys do this on a replacment, it's the sad truth.