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Tessy777 · May 22, 2007, 05:41 AM

I am amazed at the Christians today that don't know the difference. What is the deal? Why do so many mix law with grace. We aren't under the law anymore! Jesus fulfilled the law... we have a new covenent. We live under grace. Doesn't anyone read Paul's episitles? I am shocked! Does this mean we are to chuck the Old Testament? NO! There are principles to live by... but WE ARE NOT UNDER the LAW. Why is that such a difficult concept?

NeedKarma · May 22, 2007, 05:56 AM

By 'law' do you mean the laws of your country?

NeedKarma · May 22, 2007, 06:01 AM

Why didn't you just reply instead of using the negative comment feature?
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shygrneyzs · May 22, 2007, 06:57 AM

Which denomination or faith is telling you that you are under the Mosaic Law and not under Grace? Then perhaps we can have a more enlightened discussion, as not every Christian believes that man is governed by the Mosaic Law.

Tessy777 · May 22, 2007, 07:21 AM

No, I meant Christians in general... reading some of the questions and the way people respond. I was kind of surprised by it that is all. I have talked to a lot of Christians and it is my opinion that THIS is really a problem in the Church's today. They talk about Grace... but then they throw a little Law in there as well. It is isn't as obvious as the person asking whether they could eat blood... but it is there. That is all I am saying.

shygrneyzs · May 22, 2007, 07:36 AM

Ahhh, I understand that now. I guess the people respond so differently because of their own convictions and confusions. For some living under "The Law" offers a more tangible way of salvation. Meaning that once they follow all the guidelines and rules, they are bound for glory in the next life. It is like being given all the standards and then once achieving them, you have it made. I could write a book about that myself, having been in a church that boldly and proudly professed to having over 800 standards. But that is not the path to Heaven.

Christ gave us the choice to follow Him. He gave us simple guidelines for living as noted in the Beatitudes and the Parables. He honored the Ten Commandments and added that we love each other as we would want to be loved. He gave us a prayer of deep meaning with the Our Father. He never said it would be easy and it sure is not.

Christians sometimes can be their own worst enemy with the bickering between, as you have stated, living under the old Law and the life under Grace.

ActionJackson · Jun 21, 2007, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by Tessy777

I am amazed at the Christians today that don't know the difference. What is the deal? Why do so many mix law with grace. We aren't under the law anymore! Jesus fulfilled the law.....we have a new covenent. We live under grace. Doesn't anyone read Paul's episitles? I am shocked! Does this mean we are to chuck the Old Testament? NO! There are principles to live by....but WE ARE NOT UNDER the LAW. Why is that such a difficult concept?

Law is tomato sauce... Grace is pasta. Together they make a plate of spaghetti (or the complete Word of God). Law and Grace go hand in hand or hand in glove. They are man's friends. Law give's man a standard or goal to reach. When man fails to reach the perfect standard, he is forgiven through God's grace and the shed blood of Christ. Because we are so grateful for having been forgiven, we try to please God by striving to reach His goal, the Law. Over time, we get closer to reaching that perfect standard through trial and error and practice.

Tessy777 · Jun 21, 2007, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by ActionJackson

Law is tomato sauce...Grace is pasta. Together they make a plate of spaghetti (or the complete Word of God). Law and Grace go hand in hand or hand in glove. They are man's friends. Law give's man a standard or goal to reach. When man fails to reach the perfect standard, he is forgiven through God's grace and the shed blood of Christ. Because we are so grateful for having been forgiven, we try to please God by striving to reach His goal, the Law. Over time, we get closer to reaching that perfect standard through trial and error and practice.

Funny... you are whippin up Italian food... and all I can smell is bologna. ;)

Fr_Chuck · Jun 21, 2007, 07:03 PM

Because the law in general has a place, one an not steal, ( is it OK for a Christian to steal) you can not kill ( is it OK for chistians to kill)
You can not do adultry ( well at least they are not suppose to)

Thou shall have no other gods before me, first commandment, is that now a suggestion, which god can a christian have other than God.

I would say that one can not throw the law out but has to divide the laws that governed the Hewbrew nation ( their statue laws) and the absolute laws and rule that God has set.

You know I always had an issue with that "covert they neighbors lawn mowers and new cars commandment, so if we can just make them suggestions now, it will work out better for me to.

ActionJackson · Jun 21, 2007, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by Tessy777

funny...you are whippin up Italian food .......and all I can smell is bologna. ;)

Perhaps your senses are a bit off. Italian food should smell like Italian food.

speechlesstx · Jun 22, 2007, 10:03 AM

Why do so many mix law with grace.

Tessy, I am as perplexed as you.

Why is that such a difficult concept?

I believe people have an inexplicable need to do something on their own to merit salvation. I also believe people have difficulty accepting that salvation can be as simple as accepting the gift - as in there must be more to it. It's obvious you recognize that grace - the unmerited favor of God - does not invalidate the commandments. But I understand as I'm sure you do that we're not talking about living by the ten commandments, we're talking about earning your salvation. Ain't going to happen, so you might as well give in to grace.

Steve

speechlesstx · Jun 22, 2007, 10:49 AM

Dude, finally... the voice of reason... we will get along great!

Why thank you. What's funny is that's the kind of response that got me called anything but the 'voice of reason' on another forum :D

inthebox · Jun 22, 2007, 10:59 AM

Guilt?
Perfectionism?

Other passages
Matthew 25 - the sheep and the goats
John 14: 15 on
James 2: 14,
the parable of the sower.

even Paul's Romans 8:
10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness

now who has not read something like that and thought : I still lust or get angry or envy etc.. Why?

or felt guilty because that they weren't on a "missions"

Maybe Christians and non- believers expect perfection and no one can achieve that in the flesh, so to speak.

Romans 7:
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Grace and Peace

ActionJackson · Jun 22, 2007, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Tessy, I am as perplexed as you.
I believe people have an inexplicable need to do something on their own to merit salvation. I also believe people have difficulty accepting that salvation can be as simple as accepting the gift - as in there must be more to it. It's obvious you recognize that grace - the unmerited favor of God - does not invalidate the commandments. But I understand as I'm sure you do that we're not talking about living by the ten commandments, we're talking about earning your salvation. Ain't gonna happen, so you might as well give in to grace.

Steve

I keep seeing this recurring sentiment. "The Law is done away with and all we need is grace; however, that does not mean that the Law is done way with or that the commandments are invalidated, etc." Talk about perplexing.

I shall repeat... the law shall not save anyone because nobody can keep it perfectly. Nobody has ever kept the law perfectly accept for Jesus Christ. Why would our Example, Jesus Christ, keep the law perfectly if it was not important to strive for that perfection? When we fail to keep the law of God, we turn to Christ for forgiveness. If there is no law, there is no sin for "sin is the transgression of the law." If there is no transgression then there is no sin and no reason to be forgiven. The concept is so mind-bogglingly simple. Perhaps that's the problem here. Maybe it's too simple.

Tessy777 · Jun 22, 2007, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by ActionJackson

I keep seeing this recurring sentiment. "The Law is done away with and all we need is grace; however, that does not mean that the Law is done way with or that the commandments are invalidated, etc." Talk about perplexing.

I shall repeat...the law shall not save anyone because nobody can keep it perfectly. Nobody has ever kept the law perfectly accept for Jesus Christ. Why would our Example, Jesus Christ, keep the law perfectly if it was not important to strive for that perfection? When we fail to keep the law of God, we turn to Christ for forgiveness. If there is no law, there is no sin for "sin is the transgression of the law." If there is no transgression then there is no sin and no reason to be forgiven. The concept is so mind-bogglingly simple. Perhaps that's the problem here. Maybe it's too simple.

AJ,

I agree with you.. but you put yourself back under the law when it isn't necessary. We have an even a higher standard under Grace as far as sin goes. Look, I have the Ten Commandments on my wall and they are good. But if I break one... I don't have to sacrifice an animal on the alter, I don't go to Temple. That was then... the old covenant and this is now... new covenant.. and Jesus is all I need. The Law was given to show mankind just how hopeless he is. I am not under it... I am free! I can eat pork, I can do what I want on the Sabbath. I'm NOT under it!! I'm not under the law. Dude, if you want to put yourself back under it.. it is OK with me... you won't get a bigger crown in glory for it. Nuff said... we will never see eye to eye on this subject so go eat your speghetti and lets discuss something else.

ActionJackson · Jun 22, 2007, 03:29 PM

[QUOTE=Tessy777]AJ,

I agree with you.. but you put yourself back under the law when it isn't necessary. We have an even a higher standard under Grace as far as sin goes. Look, I have the Ten Commandments on my wall and they are good.

So far, so good.

But if I break one... I don't have to sacrifice an animal on the alter, I don't go to Temple.

I will literally give you $100.00 if you can re-print one of my posts where I said that we should "sacrifice" an animal if we break a commandment. On the contrary. I have repeatedly stated that Jesus Chrsit is our final offering and ultimate sacrifice. His death on the cross erased the need for animal sacrifice. The sacrificial laws WERE done away with at Christ's death on the cross.

That was then... the old covenant and this is now... new covenant.. and Jesus is all I need.

And here are some words from the lips of Jesus, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15

The Law was given to show mankind just how hopeless he is. I am not under it... I am free!

Free to break the Law?

I can eat pork, I can do what I want on the Sabbath. I'm NOT under it!! I'm not under the law.

A time shall come when we all stand before the Lord Jesus Christ in judgment. When He asks you why you didn't obey God's Word, I hope you have a ready answer.
QUOTE]
Actually, it's Porterhouse Steak, big salad with blue cheese, baked taters, and rice milk (better for you than cow's milk or soy milk).

Tessy777 · Jun 22, 2007, 03:46 PM

Dude.. if you are under the law... you need to sacrifice an animal. You don't get to pick what you are going to do. God said do it. (under the law)

I'm not breaking the law... because I am NOT UNDER THE LAW.

Jesus was talking to the Jewish people.. did you know there wasn't a Christian in the lot! They were Jewish men and women under the law. When he died and rose again.. he set me free. Not free to sin... but to live under Grace.. the new covenant.

What will I say when he asks why I didn't follow the law? I will say because I understood your Word and I didn't mix Law with Grace. I learned how to righlty divide it... I knew when you were talking directly to me and what was for me. I understood when I read each book of the Bible who it was written to, why it was written and it didn't get confusing, because you oh Lord aren't the author of confusion. ( and when he gets to you... I'm going to snicker) ;)

katiekate · Jan 8, 2011, 04:08 AM

The LAW does not motivate us to produce fruit. It is God's GRACE that motivates us. The LAW motivates acts of the flesh 'dead WORKS'. God's GRACE motivates FRUIT of the Spirit. You can't strive to reach the LAW. It is unattainable.

katiekate · Jan 8, 2011, 04:16 AM

This is a great comment.
Don't EVER mix law and grace!
Christians get upset at other Christians for not acting like Christians. (which I suppose is fair enough)
So they go around telling others to do do do... change change change...
If only they realised that this is a RELIGIOUS way of motivating that change of behaviour!
ANYTHING done to become a 'better Christian' is an act of the FLESH.
As soon as we stop depending on Jesus for our salvation and acceptance we are standing on our own works and that is dangerous!
So how do we get people to start acting like Christians??
By telling them who they ARE already!.
If you are in Christ, you are 100% righteous!!
Christianity isn't about DOING. Its about BEING.
It is only when you truly know who you ARE in Christ, that you are able to DO what God has called you to do.
Why? Because then it is motivated by the Holy Spirit!! By GRACE!!
Martin Luther got rid of some of this BULL CRAP mixture of law and grace... I think that some religion didn't get dealt with.
Unfortunately most people don't get that we are under a NEW covenant!! Jesus dealt with the law...
I HATE that word!
People want to be judged by it.. then that's fine... you won't make it by a LONGGG SHOT!!

jlisenbe · Jan 16, 2011, 09:09 PM

Is it possible that it is the purpose of the law which has changed? In OT times, the purpose of the law was to instruct man on how to become acceptable to God. That plainly failed, so we are now, as always, accepted by God on the basis of faith. So the law now serves two functions: 1. It is there to point out our many failures, humbling us and causing us to see ourselves as sinners in need of help outside of ourselves(Jesus). 2. To show us God's ways and his expectations for our lives. Not in reference to the OT religious ordinances, but from the perspective of the moral code of the OT.

So the 10 commandments, for instance, are now seen not as the path to salvation, but the goal for the Christian who desires to live a life pleasing in the sight of God.