Eternal damnation?

rr man · May 9, 2007, 06:40 PM

I know the bible says that if a person is not saved and is burned up in the fires of hell that the smoke of his torment ariseth forever. Does that mean that he will actually suffer the pain and torment forever? Or once he is burned in the fires of hell he will no longer be conscious? Kind of confusing to me.

mr_guy · May 9, 2007, 06:50 PM

Basically, there is no such place as "hell" or "heaven" (scientifically and physically). However, spiritually, there are such places. In hell, you'll stay conscious forever, walking the underworld amidst the flaming walls and the burning magma around you. Therefore, you will suffer eternal damnation forever.

However, there is a better side to this. It only happens if you're "bad" on earth. If you're good, you go to heaven and live with good people, and so on.

gogosean · May 9, 2007, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by rr man

I know the bible says that if a person is not saved and is burned up in the fires of hell that the smoke of his torment ariseth forever. Does that mean that he will actually suffer the pain and torment forever? Or once he is burned in the fires of hell he will no longer be conscious? Kinda confusing to me.

Would it mean anything to you if you knew that many scholars assert that the word "hell" means "grave"? Would you begin to face your creator out of love and admiration instead of trembling in the presence?

Other scholars assert "Who cares what the word hell means? It doesn't change anything". Answering this question is difficult because a true answer would not fall short of telling you what to believe. I can only go so far with an answer because I have no expertise in what you SHOULD believe.

Fr_Chuck · May 9, 2007, 07:24 PM

In Christianity many see it as a actual fire and burning, but then there is another theme where it will be the spiritual doom of knowing there is a God but not living within his blessings.
And a few that see it as an eternal death, after punishment they will just stop to exisit.

The main idea is to realise that the choice of not accepting is a bad idea no matter what, and of course if there was not a hell, Jesus would not have had to come to save mankind that would accept him. So just that fact that he came and died and raised from the dead is all that is needed to know beyond a doubt that some level of hell does exist.

And it of course hell be a indivicual things, living an forever in the worst life you can ever have. But the idea of living without the love of jesus in your heart for me would be the worst hell ever possible.

MissAdvice · May 9, 2007, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by rr man

I know the bible says that if a person is not saved and is burned up in the fires of hell that the smoke of his torment ariseth forever. Does that mean that he will actually suffer the pain and torment forever? Or once he is burned in the fires of hell he will no longer be conscious? Kinda confusing to me.

Well lets look at the world hell... Hell was an english word described for Hades. Hades which was written in hebrew had nothing to with fire. I believe the english translation of the world came some years, maybe centuries later. Hades however is a place of torment. I personally believe that it may be a form of depression. So in essence, Hell is a mental depression that never goes away. Jesus went to hell, to save souls. This is biblical. I personally don't believe in a hell with a fire. However mental depression with no help available is enuff without the fire. Hades is listed as a bottomless pit... It could also be translated as a mental depression with no end.

cal823 · May 10, 2007, 03:54 AM

Originally Posted by mr_guy

However, there is a better side to this. It only happens if you're "bad" on earth. If you're good, you go to heaven and live with good people, and so on.

Sort of wrong sorry mate, we christians believe that all people are sinners, so you cannot "earn" your way into heaven by being good, because no one is completely good every moment of their life, the only way is to accept jesus christ as your personal lord and saviour. Also, hell in my view, is a place of pure evil.
Evil is the lack of god, just as darkness is the lack of light, cold is the lack of heat, etc.
So hell is the one place where god isn't, the one exception to gods omniprescence.

Wangdoodle · May 10, 2007, 07:01 PM

Jesus speaks of the unquenchable fire, Gehenna. MT 13:41-42 says " The son of Man will scend his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth." MT 25:41 Jesus says "Then he will say to those on his left, depart from ne, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Eternal is forever, and it sounds like hell is quite hot too.

CakeLady · May 10, 2007, 07:26 PM

The one thing people NEVER seem to think about is the "literal" side to all of the "heaven and hell" arguments. Seriously, though--it's not that difficult, but people make it so.

Think of it like this, and you'll never be "scared" of a "hell" or whatever again:

If you don't have a BODY (ie physically, with nerve endings, blood, etc.) then HOW are you supposed to feel the "burning hellfires" that proverbially go along with the fairy tale taught to us as children?

It's all so "Brothers Grimm" to me. There isn't anything after we die except death. Everything we experience while breathing and all consciousness stops. No brain---no realization, no anything.

Wangdoodle · May 10, 2007, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by CakeLady

The one thing people NEVER seem to think about is the "literal" side to all of the "heaven and hell" arguments. Seriously, though--it's not that difficult, but people make it so.

Think of it like this, and you'll never be "scared" of a "hell" or whatever again:

If you don't have a BODY (ie physically, with nerve endings, blood, etc.) then HOW are you supposed to feel the "burning hellfires" that proverbially go along with the fairy tale taught to us as children?

It's all so "Brothers Grimm" to me. There isn't anything after we die except death. Everything we experience while breathing and all consciousness stops. No brain---no realization, no anything.

If humans have no eternal soul then you are right. Death of the body would be the end. However, it seems that rr man is asking for a christian perspective, and every type of christian denomination I know of teaches that humans have an eternal soul. So to christians, death is not the end but the beginning of eternity ether with God, or apart from God.

Starman · May 10, 2007, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by Wangdoodle

Jesus speaks of the unquenchable fire, Gehenna. MT 13:41-42 says " The son of Man will scend his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth." MT 25:41 Jesus says "Then he will say to those on his left, depart from ne, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Eternal is forever, and it sounds like hell is quite hot too.

Gehhenna was an incinerator outside the walls of Jerusalem where garbage and the bodies of dead criminals deamed unworthy of burial and by extension a resurrection
Were thrown.

What Is Hell?

BTW

Why would God want to condemn someone to eternal torture? Isn't torture a criminal offense and any country using it as punishment considered barbarian?

Wangdoodle · May 10, 2007, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by Starman

BTW

Why would God want to condemn someone to eternal torture? Isn't torture a criminal offense and any country using it as punishment considered barbarian?

2pet 3:19 says God does not want any to perish but that all should come to repentance.
It is a willful turning away from God that condemns one to eternal torture. If we choose to separate our self from God, it is by our own free will.

Sunshine2 · May 10, 2007, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by rr man

I know the bible says that if a person is not saved and is burned up in the fires of hell that the smoke of his torment ariseth forever. Does that mean that he will actually suffer the pain and torment forever? Or once he is burned in the fires of hell he will no longer be conscious? Kinda confusing to me.

Yes, if you are a nonbeliever, you will burn in hell forever. You will feel it forever and it will burnrnrrnrnrnrnrnrnrnrnrn forever. You ask God into your heart to be your personal Lord and Savior. Believe that he died on the cross to pay for all of my sins, your sins, etc. Living a life for God is the most wonderful decision one could ever make. The bible says it all. Would you like me to pray for you or anyone else? God Bless, Sunshine2

cal823 · May 11, 2007, 03:54 AM

Originally Posted by Wangdoodle

If humans have no eternal soul then you are right. Death of the body would be the end. However, it seems that rr man is asking for a christian perspective, and every type of christian denomination I know of teaches that humans have an eternal soul. So to christians, death is not the end but the beginning of eternity ether with God, or apart from God.

Basically, this is how it goes, from a christian perspective.
I have a Soul. I inhabit a Body. I am A spirit.
The soul in my opinion is sort of like your body after you die in a way, the true person is the spirit, not a waaaaa I'm a ghost kind of spirit though, something deeper. The body dies, but the spirit and the soul are undying.

Starman · May 11, 2007, 09:31 AM

Not everyone agrees that the eternal torture consequence is biblical.

THE BIBLICAL TRUTH ABOUT HELL.

BTW
Anyone who condemns a sentient creature to eternal agony is neither good nor deserves to be worshipped. In my opinion Of course that doesn't mean that such an entity will lack worshippers. It only means that such an entity can't count on me to worship him or to pronounce him as good.

Starman · May 11, 2007, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Wangdoodle

2pet 3:19 says God does not want any to perish but that all should come to repentance.
It is a willful turning away from God that condemns one to eternal torture. If we choose to separate our self from God, it is by our own free will.

If God is the one who set the consequence for disobedience as eternal torture, I really don't see how the tortured is to blame for the type of punishment he receives. If I am skinned alive, how is it my fault that the savages doing the skinning chose to use that PARTICULAR method? It's not the choice it's the nature of the consequence for making that choice that is in question. Who benefits from all the agony you say that those who are unrepentant sinners suffer? Just curious.

Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, G.A. res. 39/46, annex, 39 U.N. GAOR Supp. (No. 51) at 197, U.N. Doc. A/39/51 (1984), entered into force June 26, 1987.

Retrotia · May 11, 2007, 11:46 AM

I agree that the punishment is not forever in the Lake of Fire, which is the 2nd death, where Death & Hades get thrown into along with Satan, the beast, & the false prophet. The Satanic 3 may be tormented forever & ever as Revelation says-but I don't believe death & Hades does.
I do believe there is a hell(a temporary holding place) right now-but there is no fire as we know fire. It is just extremely hot. Just as described in Luke 16:19-31-The Rich Man and Lazarus. Also, the devil is not there-he is a spiritual being & is still going to & fro on earth & in the heavenlies to deceive of course.
But I believe the Lake of Fire represents a final purification (but end) to people's sin & state of being.
Quote:
Whatever we hold as the nature of the death state, may we let this truth sink deep into our hearts: DEATH IS TO BE ABOLISHED. The ringing declaration, "The LAST enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (I Cor. 15:26), overthrows the whole structure of accepted, but unproved, theology which shuts up the mass of the human race in "eternal death." When the "last" enemy is abolished it is self-evident that none remains. Those wretched religionists who demand the endlessness of death, who argue for eternal torment in the lake of fire, the second death, do err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. The lake of fire MUST end because death and hell are cast into it, which is the second death, and in the end THERE SHALL BE N-O M-O-R-E D-E-A-T-H. - end quote.

Wangdoodle · May 11, 2007, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by Starman

If God is the one who set the consequence for disobedience as eternal torture, I really don't see how the tortured is to blame for the type of punishment he receives. If I am skinned alive, how is it my fault that the savages doing the skinning chose to use that PARTICULAR method? It's not the choice it's the nature of the consequence for making that choice that is in question. Who benefits from all the agony you say that those who are unrepentant sinners suffer? Just curious.

If you are skinned alive, it is the savages fault. It is them acting on their will. You would be the victim. I’m assuming they came after you. You did not come to them knowing you would be skinned alive. I do not see this as a good comparison to the sufferings of hell. God is full of mercy in that he has provided a way to heaven. He does not take away one’s free will however. If you choose to separate yourself from him, it is your choice.

As to who benefits from suffering in hell, I simply do not know. That is beyond my limited understanding.

Thank you Starman for making me think more deeply. :)

Fr_Chuck · May 11, 2007, 07:52 PM

Instead of skinned alive,

If you go out and rob a store, and rape the clerk and kill a police officer while trying to get away.

Whose fault is it that you go to prison for life, is it the judges fault, is it the juries fault, is ti the prison guards fault. Is it congress for passing the law. Is it the stone mason who built the prison

No it is the persons fault who did the crime. The same with Hell, and its punishments, the person who is dommed makes those choices that causes them to go there, So one can not blame God and one can not claim to be the victim, they are responsible for their own actions.
It is a common idea of trying to blame others for what we do, that way our choices is not our fault, but in the end each of our choices are ours to be judged by

Starman · May 11, 2007, 08:52 PM

If a government has torture as its punishing system the government is held accountable for using that system. Torture is a crime against humanity. What you are saying is that those who make torture legal in their country are not to be blamed for using that method. It isn't their fault that people break the law and fall get tortured. That view goes completely contrary to the USA Constitution and the United Nations official declaration of human rights which codemn torture as being a crime.

Because a superior being is said to have instituted it doesn't make it any less of a crime. Actually, that's the might makes right argument taken to its extreme.

BTW
Just recently an American spray painted some cars in Hong Kong and was sentenced to be whipped. The people of the USA were horrified and called it a crime and barbaric and demanded the American's release. So what we have here is a double standard.

Starman · May 11, 2007, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by Wangdoodle

If you are skinned alive, it is the savages fault. It is them acting on their will. You would be the victim. I'm assuming they came after you. You did not come to them knowing you would be skinned alive. I do not see this as a good comparison to the sufferings of hell. God is full of mercy in that he has provided a way to heaven. He does not take away one's free will however. If you choose to separate yourself from him, it is your choice.

As to who benefits from suffering in hell, I simply do not know. That is beyond my limited understanding.

Thank you Starman for making me think more deeply. :)

Being full of mercy doesn't quite harmonize with a being who supposedly approves of
Eternal torture as punishment if you don't do what he says. Furthermore, why would God make a place for sinners to torture sinners FOREVER because they have sinned? The devil and his angels are sinners. So how is it that they are believed to be in hell being allowed or given the privilege of enjoying themselves via sadistically torturing helpless human souls?

The being that you are describing to me might arouse fear as a monster, or an insane criminal who has power to harm do. But the being that you are describing does not move me to respect him nor want any part of him since the being you are describing seems to be criminally insane.

The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment