[CaptainRich]

...a case could be made for them being victims too.


excon

Slow the bus down! How are they "victims?"

[excon]

Hello again, Captain:

Go read just the first two paragraphs of what Fr. Chuck says. I believe him. Looks like they're victims to me.

excon

[Emland]

I'll start with this disclaimer. I respect anyone that is willing to bust their butt to better themselves and/or give their family a decent living.

I don't like seeing our country overrun by illegal immigrants. I believe the answer lies in better border control and a lot more enforcement of the employers hiring them. Like a previous poster mentioned, many of these people are paid on a daily basis - in cash. The state isn't receiving any withholding, the worker isn't entitled to any worker's compensation or unemployment benefits. They are working without a safety net.

I would like to see a viable worker program. I doubt however, that many of the employers using illegals will go for it, though. If they become legal, then they will have to pay FICA, State witholding & medicare taxes. They'll need a bookkeeper to keep it straight, higher bank fees to process the payroll checks. So much easier and cheaper to keep a roll of 20s in your pocket and pay at the end of the day.

[AW805]

excon & Fr_Chuck: Just because someone uses the word "them" or "they" doesn't mean it's derogatory or that we lack compassion.

excon: Lou Dobbs? Are you for real? Do you honestly think that I'm brainwashed by the media --because I can see what's going on right here in front of my eyes.

There are no easy answers to this but our country is going to eventually break. We can't constantly give and give and not receive anything back. They are plenty of people that have come here legally and make contributions to this country.

[Starman]

excon & Fr_Chuck: We can't constantly give and give and not receive anything back. They are plenty of people that have come here legally and make contributions to this country.

Receive NOTHING back?

Excerpt:

The fact is that the benefits of illegal immigration — larger labor pool, lower inflation, higher levels of productivity — are felt at the national level and so dispersed as to be generally imperceptible.

By Ambassador Jeffrey Davidow
Immigration, the United States and Mexico

Here are some contributions:

HISPANIC CONTRIBUTIONS - Home

Hispanics in the American Revolution, War of Independence

Hispanics in the US Military

[gogosean]

Want to solve the so called illegal Hispanic immigration problem? Crack down on those who are gladly breaking their own country's law by doing the hiring. As long as there are AMERICANS who value profit more than they value their own country's laws and continue to illegally hire people they aren't supposed to because it's illegal to do so, the situation will continue.

By the way, those doing the illegal hiring aren't threatened with starvation if they obey our cherished country's laws by not hiring illegally. They simply won't make as much of a profit as they are doing by illegal hiring. But since they are unwilling to make less while they can make much more by simply ignoring their beloved country's laws and hiring illegally they will continue to hire illegally confident that the full blame for the situation will be placed conveniently on the backs of those being illegally hired.

BTW
Weird! You don't see the self-appointed anti-immigration crusader Dobbs becoming irate against these who have a duty as Americans to abide by the country's laws but who shamelessly prefer to do business illegally for a profit.

Some in the media are absolutely incorrect when they claim illegals are not giving to the system. Some posts simply reflect the fact that the average American does not have a basic understanding of economics.

If a business spends millions in labor each year and sets some aside for profit and some aside to lower its prices, you, the middle class pontificator, are getting your lifestlye subsidized by below market labor. Also, if a business saves millions in labor costs and keeps it as profit, they are paying taxes at a CORPORATE tax rate, which is way higher than a poor person's indiviual tax rate. Your bottom line is that everything you buy is cheaper because of immigrants being all around the supply chain and your taxes are lower.

The uneducated in this country buy into fear mongering about immigrants. The US government collects a lot more tax revenue by taxing the corporations savings on labor than the immigrant's labor taxes would have been. So now you get to shop at Wal-Mart a little cheaper, and your income taxes are lower.

Before you post about what you see on TV, read a book or two on the topic and educate yourself. The real agenda of Bill Oreilly and the other people you watch on Fox News is racism, because the economic arguments are pro immigrant. Sounds like you get a lot of info from TV...

As far as Bank of America is concerned, try paying Western Union a devastating percentage of your income to give it to a family that would starve otherwise. Bank of America's credit products are humanitarian and progressive. Immigrants are not the only audience for accessible credit products. What they are doing is nothing short of buying in to cutting edge economics research that shows micro credit can have a profund impact on the US underclass. BOA should lauded for their humanitarian efforts, which existed long before these new credit products.

So, smart guys, do we deny the underpriveledged citizens of this country credit because you have a beef with Mexicans? When you buy the lettuce at the grocery store, it is picked by an immigrant who has already had his taxes taken out under an assumed social security number. Now he has to sell his soul to Western Union to feed his family while you are feeding your face with lettuce you got from the bargain bin. Now that you your mouth is full of lettuce, you start babbling on and on about the leeches from Mexico. Stop watching TV and start doing a little reading.

When you are done kicking all the Mexicans out, who are you going to kick out next? Will it be the Chinese or people from India. Are you going to start claiming that they should not have slots open for them at universtities because all the midddle class in the US can't compete on their own terms? Do you feel robbed because your job working as a bus boy was taken by a Mexican? When you are done throwing them out of the country, will you put on the apron and start collecting dishes from dirty tables, or are you just a middle class consumer of the fear mongering people use to get elected to office?

[Starman]

Some in the media are absolutely incorrect when they claim illegals are not giving to the system. Some posts simply reflect the fact that the average American does not have a basic understanding of economics.

If a business spends millions in labor each year and sets some aside for profit and some aside to lower its prices, you, the middle class pontificator, are getting your lifestlye subsidized by below market labor. Also, if a business saves millions in labor costs and keeps it as profit, they are paying taxes at a CORPORATE tax rate, which is way higher than a poor person's indiviual tax rate. Your bottom line is that everything you buy is cheaper because of immigrants being all around the supply chain and your taxes are lower.

The uneducated in this country buy into fear mongering about immigrants. The US government collects a lot more tax revenue by taxing the corporations savings on labor than the immigrant's labor taxes would have been. So now you get to shop at Wal-Mart a little cheaper, and your income taxes are lower....

My post was not intended as an attack against the immigrants. It was intended as a reminder that those doing the hiring and those allowing them to hire are cooperating.
So why all the anger against the immigrants who are merely going with the policy flow? [no pun intended] That was what I was trying to say.

Hispanic Business Forums - open letter to racist against hispanics

[CaptainRich]

Receive NOTHING back?

Excerpt:

The fact is that the benefits of illegal immigration — larger labor pool, lower inflation, higher levels of productivity — are felt at the national level and so dispersed as to be generally imperceptible.

By Ambassador Jeffrey Davidow
Immigration, the United States and Mexico

Here are some contributions:

HISPANIC CONTRIBUTIONS - Home

Hispanics in the American Revolution, War of Independence

Hispanics in the US Military

REMEMBER THE ALAMO
I have no problem with Hispanics. Those who want to become citizens and contribute are very welcome. I visited some of the links you mentioned and though I didn't see any proof that any of the men I read about, mostly Medal of Honor recipients, were probably English speaking, and had either already obtained citizenship or were about to.
The big white elephant in the middle of the room is : are the ones who sneak over the border, through fences and over walls (that should have been a message), assault armed border patrol officers, are they the ones "fitting in?" Are they wanting to contribute? What about other nationalities (read: terrorists) coming here the same way? Do you not think something needs to be done to stop that?

[AW805]

Gee okay, I'll try to take off my dunce hat to write this seeing how I'm uneducated and need to read a book. As far as Lou Dobbs & O'Reilly, don't flatter yourself, don't watch either one of them.

As far as Mexican being "leeches" -- I don't think anyone called them that. Love the twist in words.

I've been to Mexico many many times, have actually lived pretty close to the border. My family has supported Mexican orphanges and give to a multitude of charities. It's a devastating situation when families are living in carboard boxes, children are begging in the streets caked in dirt, moms selling bits of gum for 25 cents a piece, dogs strewn all over the streets dead from starvation, tainted water, corrupt government, shall I go on?
Truth be known, I'd probably high tale it the US too if I had to live like that.

What about us people smacking on our low cost lettuce? I didn't chose the people to pick it. Farmers did. Farmers and employers like them are the enablers. I think it's a crime to pay illegals the wages that they do -- expect them to live in squaller, leaving them with no choice but to provide fraudulent documents. Because of that, now, the US provides food stamps, Headstart programs, welfare, medical care. Is that what you support? I don't. I couldn't stand in a field all day picking food and getting paid crap. Sounds like your attitude is "someone's doing it, they need the money anyway and it's good for our economy". That's a bunch of bull. Stop the illegal hiring. Stop taking advantage of illegals. Come down on the corrupt Mexican government and make them accountable for their citizens. Help our neighbors stand on their feet and be proud of their country again.

[AW805]

Gogosean: Yep. I have access to a small farmers market. Guess who picked it? Nope... not the farmer. Also, not all cities or states have farmers markets.
But I hardly think buying a head a lettuce at the farmers market is going save us. I know, I know, you're going to say it's a start and we've got to start somewhere. You want to resolve this from the bottom up... when we need to start at the top.

[gogosean]

AW805 suggests starting at the top. Where is the top? We used to have money in the bank before GW's tax cuts and false pretenses of national security had to be financed. The US government really isn't even trying to fix this. Look at how the feds handled Katrina. I think it is very kind of you to still have faith in those at the TOP, but where are they? They are doing photo ops in safe zones in the middle east while many of our loved ones are asking where the hell their body armour is. Maybe it got stuck in an immigrant's sewing machine. Maybe the overseas sweatshops are falling behind filling all the jobs that have moved overseas. What happened to the jobs that count? They didn't go to immigrants. They went to trading partners.

[Starman]

REMEMBER THE ALAMO
I have no problem with Hispanics. Those who want to become citizens and contribute are very welcome. I visited some of the links you mentioned and though I didn't see any proof that any of the men I read about, mostly Medal of Honor recipients, were probably English speaking, and had either already obtained citizenship or were about to.
The big white elephant in the middle of the room is : are the ones who sneak over the border, through fences and over walls (that should have been a message), assault armed border patrol officers, are they the ones "fitting in?" Are they wanting to contribute? What about other nationalities (read: terrorists) coming here the same way? Do you not think something needs to be done to stop that?

Yes, I think that unrestricted border entries are not a good idea because of the criminal elements such as terroirists that can infiltrate. I simply don't think, however, that all the anger should be directed at the immigrants like Dobbs regularly does.

Those who took part in the Revolutionary War under General Galvez weren't USA citizens.


Excerpt

The following is excerpted from an article written by Lt J.D. Ortiz CHC, USNR. NTC Chaplain..

"Through the years, Hispanic American citizens have risen to the call of duty in defense of liberty and freedom. Their bravery is well known and has been demonstrated time and again, dating back to the aid rendered by General Bernardo de Galvez during the American Revolution".

-President Ronald Reagan

Few Americans are aware that Bernardo de Galvez was the Spanish governor of the Louisiana territory that encompassed 13 of our present states. They are also unaware that long before any formal declaration of war, General Galvez sent gunpowder, rifles, bullets, blankets, medicine and other supplies to the armies of General George Washington and General George Rogers Clark. Once Spain entered the war against Great Britain in 1779, this dashing young officer raised an army in New Orleans and drove the British out of the Gulf of Mexico. General Galvez captured five British forts in the Lower Mississippi Valley. They repelled a British and Indian attack in St. Louis, Missouri and captured the British fort of St. Joseph in present-day Niles, Michigan. With reinforcements from Cuba, Mexico, Puerto Rico, General Galvez captured Mobile and Pensacola, the capital of the British colony of West Florida. At Pensacola, Galvez commanded a multinational army of over 7,000 black and whitesoldiers. These men were born in Spain, Cuba, Mexico, Puerto Rico, Hispanola, and other Spanish colonies such as Venezuela. The city was defended by a British and Indian army of 2,500 soldiers and British warships.

An American historian called the siege of Pensacola "a decisive factor in the outcome of the Revolution and one of the most brilliantly executed battles of the war." Another historian stated that General Galvez' campaign broke the British will to fight. This battle ended in May 1781, just five months before the final battle of the war at Yorktown.

General Bernardo de Galvez and his contributions have been remembered even to this day with statues and even a city named in his honor, Galveston, Texas.

United States history textbooks seldom mention the important contributions by our "forgotten allies," Spain and Hispanic America, during the American Revolution. They also forget that they helped in the establishment and growth of the first democracy in the modern world.
The neglect in reporting Hispanic contributions extends to all periods of American history. Textbooks also fail to mention the role of 10,000 Hispanic soldiers who fought on both sides of the Civil War.

Role of General Bernando Galvez in the American Revolution



BTW
When you visit Hispanic sites and they mention contributions, what kind of proof do you require in order to be convinced that they aren't lying? Just curious.

Puerto Ricans in NASA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[CaptainRich]

If tomorrow, maybe when I post this banter... Suppose first thing tomorrow, no more illegal Mexican's came over. What if they, collectively, said, "They're right. We don't belong." And their assault on our border is done. Re : my white elephant... Who's going to stop the next wave to flood the weakness? The next wave of problems. Some say we shouldn't be in Baghdad. I say better Baghdad than Boston! We have a problem realizing that concept as a nation, party divided. That's just dumb.

[excon]

If tomorrow, maybe when I post this banter... Suppose first thing tommorow, no more illegal Mexican's came over. What if they, collectively, said, "They're right. We don't belong."

Hello again, Captain:

Who's going to come over next?? Well somebody because that lettuce is going to be picked by someone. And, if we don't let legal workers in to pick it, illegal ones will.

I think your post explains your fundamental misunderstanding of the problem. You think the Mexicans are coming here as a political statement or establish some sort of Mexican frontier, or to invade us.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Dude, they want to pick lettuce. They want to blow your leaves. They want to wash your dishes. They're poor. They don't care about politics. They just want to feed their family. And, the reason they're here, is because we have jobs. If they didn't fill them, are you going to? No, you're not. But somebody will. And, as long as GB doesn't fix the border, you're not going to like the next ones either.

excon

[CaptainRich]

excon, you are so missing the point. If you say I don't care who picks, or washes, my lettuce, you're right. But my point is : If the WHOLE frigging world sees we can't control who comes in, anywhere!! ANY NATIONALITY!! then why have border patrols at all? What is your gain in this? Who are you, really? Really! You don't see any of this as wrong?

[excon]

Who are you, really? Really! You don't see any of this as wrong?

Hello again, Captain:

I guess you missed the part where I said the borders are broken. I, however, point the finger where it belongs -at YOUR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT - not at the brown skinned people who want to make your bed at Motel 6.

Who am I? What's the difference. I'm a guy who disagrees with you. Isn't that enough?

excon

[CaptainRich]

Again, a blancket as a platitudinal answer. "YOUR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT" Who changed the funding priorities? Who decided we spend too much on border patrols? I know I wouldn't support cutting it! If takes, say, twenty to fifty thousand, (note: American dollars!) for some Mexican's to smuggle in, do you think other groups, perhaps some of the names mentioned on national TV, do you think they could get a few buck together for their own cause...

[excon]

Hello again, Captain:

Ok, I'll try to sum it up for you.

We have jobs. Mexicans want jobs. We prevent them from coming here legally, but because our borders are open, they come here anyway. Because we really do want the lettuce to be picked, we're lax on letting them come. Hence, (your point), we have no idea who IS coming over the borders. That's bad. That's a broken immigration system resulting in the broken borders we have now.

The broken immigration system is the problem because it doesn't allow enough legal workers to come. Blame your legislators who didn't fix it 20 years ago.

If we fixed the immigration system so that we could fill all the lettuce picking jobs, and all the dish washing jobs and all the rest of these jobs with legal workers, then we can be pretty sure that the guy who IS sneaking over the border ISN'T coming here to mow your lawn.

If we did that, that would be good for us. No?

excon

[Fr_Chuck]

I will go into the Flood issues, all I can see shows that the state and local government was at the major fault and that honestly the federal government did not have the man power to do anything but give support to state agencies which did nothing basically. And of course we all know that the local government not fixing their problems caused most of it, and of course the local government having a plan but refusing to follow it, caught most of the people in the situatoin they had.

As for the tax cuts, yes they helped get the economy up to where it was at, I can't see why anyone can talk bad against the interest rates, the stock market and the great increase in tax dollars that happened from the cuts just as promised.

As for as washing the lettuce well it nees to be done better no matter who is doing it.

But it is our political system, not any one party, not any one political person, who is at blame on the immigration issue, They all want the 12 million voters voting for them, none of them are going to do anything to lose those votes. They are all putting htier parties and their re-election over the safety of the nation.

[AW805]

AW805 suggests starting at the top. Where is the top? We used to have money in the bank before GW's tax cuts and false pretenses of national security had to be financed. The US government really isn't even trying to fix this. Look at how the feds handled Katrina. I think it is very kind of you to still have faith in those at the TOP, but where are they? They are doing photo ops in safe zones in the middle east while many of our loved ones are asking where the hell their body armour is. Maybe it got stuck in an immigrant's sewing machine. Maybe the overseas sweatshops are falling behind filling all the jobs that have moved overseas. What happened to the jobs that count? They didn't go to immigrants. They went to trading partners.

Tangencies gogosean. Your forgetting the original post. It's illegal to hire an illegal. Our country needs to start coming down on employers who are not following the law.