[talaniman]

I need to get her to counseling...

... and a doctor.

[YeloDasy]

I am confused... why is she mad about the separation... I thought she wanted it. And you know what? You are allowed to make mistakes, and you deserve to be fogiven. One thing about healthy relationships is that keeping score is never good... and it sounds like she is good at bringing up the past and keeping score. That will ruin what you are working on. She really needs to go to counseling as well...
And please don't minimize the problems... the 3 biggest things that ruin marriages are 1. money, 2. communication, and 3 sex. Right now, it doesn't sound like you have a handle on any of them. So don't minimize... you have a long road ahead of you... each issue needs to be dealt with 100% in order for it to work, not just bandaid it so it looks better.
I think you are doing the right thing... but she needs to make the same effort. That is my concern.

[Delilah P]

The bottom line is that you have to work towards what you want.. but not to the extent where it consumes your life. If, after two counseling sessions, your wife doesn't offer her willingness to talk with you... I would nicely tell her that the two of you need to talk. She will HAVE to want to go to counseling with you. You agreed to go to the first two sessions alone.. but when that third one comes around, she should be right there with you. Otherwise, it's not going to work and you'll be trying to reconcile completely on your own. It's a two way street. You had admitted that she has made errors in the marriage, and, so have you. Well, then she needs to get counseling, too.. just as you are. You are trying so hard.. I really dislike that she sees YOU going, and, in the meanwhile, she is sitting back. She needs to get on the bandwagon soon if this is going to work. Long story short here, familyman2, after this next counseling.. call and tell her that you'll be at her home at _ _ _ (session time) to pick her up for counseling with you. If she is still reluctant, she may be showing signs that she doesn't want to reconcile. Also, I agree with whoever said, "slow and easy", but only in getting back together. As far as counseling together.. that needs to happen sooner than later. Otherwise, it's not going to work for her. Good luck, familyman2.

[familyman2]

It's a tight rope for sure. I do feel like giving her an ultimatum after the next session. But is this advisable? Do I say "if you really want me out of your life then go down to the courthouse and file asap, but if you have any doubts then you need to come to counseling immediately". Or something like that?

Talaniman what do you mean by she needs to see a doctor? A shrink? She does see a doctor for her ADD.

As far as the separation, it was just an ugly time. We were all falling apart. We knew we wanted to stay married, but something had to give, and she took her kids out of the situation. We should have gotten family counseling then, instead of walking away from the problem. So whether she wanted to leave or not, is not the issue. The issue is that she blames me for creating the mess, and for her starting anew with her mother and sister.
I have repeatedly taken responsibility for my part of the problem, and have made amends. She probably will never admit causing any of the trouble, so will never have to apologize for it. In her mind it was all me. I just pray that she'll come to counseling and be able to "get real". Right or wrong, when she makes up her mind, it is right to her.

I know I am portraying her in a bit of a bad light. She definitely does have problems. My mother, who is a great judge of character, thinks my wife is pathological and needs years of help. But, the fact remains that I married her for better or for worse. I'm not going to dump her for her problems. I'd like to help her through them. On the other side of the coin, she is a wonderful mother. She's beautiful to me, intelligent, fun, and interesting. If she wants to dump me because she thinks the problems are mine, that's her decision.

Finally, I know I am running on here. But I thought I would throw one more tidbit in to ponder since I've already opened my soul: I'm not the perfect guy either. I suffer from a chemical imbalance that causes bipolar depression. Even with medication, I can get down and tune out every blue moon. It's possible my wife doesn't want to deal with this, and I couldn't blame her. Maybe she's using these other excuses to hide the truth. Again, 95% of the time I'm fine. But I think she'll interpret these down times as me just being boring, or not loving her enough. I don't know...

Sorry friends. I got a little carried away this time:)

[tawnynkids]

Well I feel for your situation. She does need to "get real" it takes two to make or break a marriage. Last time I checked no one is perfect so she couldn't possibly be. I am sure there are things she should apologize for. It's wonderful that you still see so much from a positive perspective in her, that speaks a lot about who you are and the love that you are capable of. Since the counseling is so fresh I wouldn't give her any ultimatum (just yet). Just my opinion. But I sure wouldn't wait for very long, maybe a month of sessions or so but that's about it before I required her participation.

As you say you married her for better or worse and so did she. So whether you have BPD or not she should stand by you as you are standing by her. I wouldn't give her any "I wouldn't blame her" excuses on that. You are trying to manage your condition so she should support you in every way.

[talaniman]

Talaniman what do you mean by she needs to see a doctor? A shrink? She does see a doctor for her ADD.

Sorry wasn't sure if that was a fact or not since it wasn't posted and I didn't want to assume.

The issue is that she blames me for creating the mess,

She probably will never admit causing any of the trouble,

This worries me, as it is hard to reconcill unless you both see the part you play. Not good when one partner accepts blame, when they don't deserve it. Not healthy when one partner blames the other and thinks they are innocent, that will get old after a while.

[YeloDasy]

I commend you for being so open about your personal issues, it really helps. I know even on medication, BPD can have some outward effects... and the great thing is that you are aware, you don't deny, and you are willing to accept people for who they are...

The problem here is... you are assuming what "she might be thinking." That is not okay... she needs to communicate with you... exactly what is on her mind, what she needs from you, what she loves about you, what she is asking you to do... etc. This isn't a guessing game, that is NOT fair to you to wonder... it will eventually create resentment and self-worth issues... especially with the BPD because that is not your fault and it is not something that you can totally change... What I mean by that is when we constantly try to find the things wrong with us and try to change everything, that is not healthy. What IS healthy is for her to tell you what she loves, what she is willing to accept, and what she is asking you to address in your marriage. That IS fair...
So I hoping that she is able to tell you that in a very honest, mature, and realistic way... not when things are in turmoil.
Again, you may not have asked for these thoughts of mine, but I guess your openness has allowed me to feel like I want to defend you and protect in some sort of friend way! :)
Keep talking!

[familyman2]

There's the "seed in the misfortune". If it wasn't for this devastating event in my life, I would not have gained the invaluable insight of the wonderful people here. Every one of you who is helping me here is appreciated more than I can express in words. Don't feel like I am not asking you for your opinions--I am--all of them. I need you in my corner here, to help me take the baby steps back to my marriage. Or to help me pick up the pieces if necessary. Type away, I am listening. You are taking a huge roll in an attempt to save a family. What could be more noble than that? THANK YOU.

Back to the saga. I have a bit of a rhetorical question: My wife has her own career, making decent money. She can spend it anyway she pleases. She has plenty of kids to keep her occupied. She has the support of her immediate family living with her. And, she has her married male friend from her bowling league to keep her amused (I'm guessing it is a comfortable friendship to her because there are no expectations). So, in light of this, what would she need me for? And if she doesn't need me, why would she want me?
I'm not trying to be negative, I'm trying to make sense of it. How do I express to her that I do belong in her life, and she belongs in mine?

[talaniman]

How do I express to her that I do belong in her life, and she belongs in mine?

She knows what you want , but does she know what she wants? If she wants to continue with you is her choice and hers alone.

So, in light of this, what would she need me for? And if she doesn't need me, why would she want me?

I think this is the question she is trying to answer for herself.

Could it be she doesn't see you as a friend but as an adversary? Hence her rebellion and need to spare her kids the conflicts you and her may have? It is getting pretty obvious the communications have broken down. Maybe a good point to bring up with your therapist.

[YeloDasy]

No one NEEDS anyone, if she wants you a part of her life, then she needs to allow that to happen again. It is taking the risk and allowing someone in your life and being vulnerable. I agree with Tal, that is the struggle she sounds like she is having... not really about you personally, but inside herself. Again, you can't read her mind or her internal thoughts, so let that be hers, just encourage her to seek help in that decision Or give her time. Not indefinitaly, but a timeframe you are comfortable with. She knows you will be there for her, so show her you are doing for yourself... and maybe she will feel left behind or left out. :) Sometimes in order to make a decision that is hard, there has to be a good reason to make it and not sit in limbo! I don't know, just a thought to think about.

[Delilah P]

Communication is very important. I wouldn't give your wife an "ultimatum", but I would nicely suggest to her that you'd like to share what the therapist has been saying and how good you are feeling about it. I don't think it's a good idea to let too much time between conversations go by. Even if the two of you just go for coffee or a snack together.. just stay in touch. You had wondered why she'd want to have you in her life when she has a support system with her mother, sister, married best male friend, etc. Well, she is having many of her needs met by these people, so she's not feeling isolated, alone, or depressed. She needs to see that you are still the loving husband.. waiting for her to come home... and as I suggested, you need to keep your presence noticeable.

Has she contacted you at all during this time of separation, or are you the one having to contact her? If it is always you reaching out, you're going to get worn out emotionally. I sincerely hope she begins attending therapy with you after the 3rd or 4th session... and I hope she offers on her own.

Are you taking medication for your BPD? Are you staying with them and not missing? As you know, that is the only way everything about you will remain consistent. Perhaps that will help too if she notices that you are not wavering in your demeanor and seriouness of wanting to get back together. And, if she is on meds for her ADD, then she knows the importance, too.

You are being so good to her and her mom/sister... I hope she is not taking advantage of you. Not very many men would offer to expand their home, build a new home, offer to have the mom/sister to move in, etc. One day she'll come to a realization of what type of man she has in you and she'll be sorry for the time she had lost.

Continue to keep us updated. I'd like to hear if she calls you, especially since you had sent her a Mother's Day gift through your daughter.

Best wishes...

[talaniman]

Sorry I have more questions, have you ever cheated, or physically, mentally, or verbally abused your wife? I know, but have to ask. What region or country do you reside and the ethnicity are you and your wife, and your ages, I already know you've been married 12 yrs, and finally what religion are you?

[familyman2]

Talaniman-I have been completely faithful and have never rasied my hand to her or the kids. We have had some heated arguments in the past where we both said abusive things to each other. Definitely nothing to be proud of.

I am 42 and my wife is 37. We live in West Virginia, just over the Western Maryland line.
We are Caucasian and are spiritual. We don't belong to a formalized religeon.

What thoughts do you conclude from this information?

Delilah- She has not given me much to go on, but indifference. She does call, but mainly to schedule kid pick-ups. I think in the last four weeks she's called two or three times for small talk. I am trying to keep positive, however. She has stated that she'll come to counseling, and she has not said anything at all about divorce. So, I'm just going to hang in there for now. My counselor is great, and I think she can help us; or at least me.

To nudge my wife along a bit I did write her another note of encouragement. I guess I'll bear my soul again and write some of it here. Let me know if this was OK:

"I have such deep feelings for you and a strong belief that we can still have a great marriage. It would be difficult and painful for me if we end our marriage without giving counseling our very best efforts. I know you said you would go, and I am grateful you accepted. I also realise that you do not have to go. I will never do anything more than ask you to join me. What I am hoping is that you will give it all you've got, and treat it with great importance. Come into it with high expectations and plan for stellar results."

"It would be a shame to throw away the investment of time and energy we've put into our marriage. Let's give this counseling and our relationship everything it deserves. And whatever you decide to do after we've completed counseling, I will support. If you decide to stay, obviously I will be very happy. If you decide you must go, I will not stand in your way."

Corny? Anyway, I gave this to her last night when we exchanged the kids. She called this evening, again to discuss kids scheduling, but didn't mention the note. But I know how my wife communicates often. She normally doesn't call about schedules until the end of the week. I think her call tonight was to say it's OK, in her indirect way. She'll make the effort.
I could be wrong. But that's the vibe I got.

Thanks all...

[Delilah P]

I think your note/letter to your wife was very well-worded and sweet. I had to bite my tongue, though, while reading it as you put the whole problem on your shoulders. I'm sure it was well received by your wife since you didn't put any blame on anyone, but you did thank her for agreeing to go to counseling with you and that you wouldn't pressurize her to stay with you in the end.. if she so desired it to go that way. I know you are 'playing it safe' by not trying to antagonize or pressurize her. I can only hope, though, that the counselor will show that marriage is a two-way street and that everyday will not be smiles and pleasantries. In even the best of marriages, there are ups and downs.. or some days more carefree than others. I hope your wife will go into the counseling (and hopefully your life together) understanding that you will not always be the fall guy taking the blame for everything, including issues that she starts. You would have one long, unhappy life if that happened. I wish she would not drop subtle hints that things seem okay by calling a few days early regarding the children's schedules. You shouldn't have to be reading into everything and hoping. She should be straightforward during these times... at least letting you know that she's hopeful, or looking forward to her first visit to the counselor.. or, ask how you are doing. <heavy sigh> You are looking for any little clue and that's not fair to you. However, I know your hopes are that you get back together.. so for now, it's OK. I am looking forward to the day she goes to her first session with you.

Again, your letter was very loving and sweet. Truly! I have to believe that your letter... worded in the way you had worded it.. moved her. I SO hope so. I am keeping positive thoughts for you, familyman2. You seem like a fine person. Please continue to keep us updated.

[familyman2]

I woke up this morning feeling about the worst I have since this whole thing began. And the funny thing is that after the fog cleared sometime this afternoon I began to have some clarity in my mind;and some real anger.

Here I've been doing everything under the sun trying to keep my family together, and my marriage in tact. I have given my wife 12 years of my life and now she can't give me 10 minutes to talk about things. I am suffering and grieving, and she is running around with her bowling buddies like I don't even exist. She just doesn't seem to be appreciating any of my efforts. Furthermore, I have been taking the hit for all of our problems, even though the majority have stemmed from her emotional issues, and her irresponsibility with money. I won't say I've been perfect, but I have taken responsibility and apologized for my mistakes. And now here I am arranging and paying for counseling sessions that she hasn't even attended yet (She said she would go, but she does have a serious honesty problem to boot).

So, do I give it one more week? Do I just cut and run now? Do I hang in there a little longer? I mean the only way I can talk to her is by handing her notes. This is borderline insanity. I won't deny that I still wish to stay with her and help her, and us. And I agonize constantly about having to shuffle the kids back and forth. But I can allow myself to be a foolish doormat for only so long. I am beginning to feel resentment. In a way I just feel like going to her and give it to her straight. Another part of me wants to hang in there.
I am torn. Should I just wait it out a bit until the anger subsides? I think I'll sleep on it.

[YeloDasy]

Well, the grieving process goes something like this... Denial, Anger, bargaining, depression, then acceptance. Keep going to counseling for you... you can express to her your feelings, but do not react to them... GO TO COUNSELING AND TALK TO YOUR COUNSELOR ABOUT IT and come up with a plan. You are going to go through many emotions, and your counseling is a support for oyu right now.

[talaniman]

I think I'll sleep on it.

For now a wise decision. Talk to your counselor about what you feel.

[Delilah P]

I think you need to give it more time before you give up completely. You've been married 12 years. Giving up after such a short time of informal separation would be foolish. But, I personally feel.. and this is only my opinion.. is that you should try to get your wife to take some time and talk. Being apart while you are still married.. hoping something will just 'happen' without talking with one another doesn't make any sense. You have to be able to try to work out your difficulties with or without a counselor. Since you have a professional counselor, it would be wise for your wife to join you. After all, the problems in your marriage are not all one-sided, as you had told us. She has issues, too. I don't understand why she spends time with her friends and family while you are out trying to get your family back together? What about your kids? Why are they allowed to stay with her during this time of trial separation? I think you need to call her and tell her that you both need to talk.. and you both need to see the counselor. It has been awhile now. You've given her some down time. Stay calm. Tell her how many days it has been since she left. Talk time with or without the counselor. Good luck, familyman2. Keep posting here and let us know how it's going.

[talaniman]

I have given this much thought, and given what you've written, leave the wife alone, and put all your love and focus on the kids. Be nice, but leave her alone, and only discuss the well being of the children with her. She needs to take responsibility for this relationship, as do you and she hasn't raised a finger, not fair, as it takes two, and you can't make a relationship work by yourself. I know your trying, but she isn't, so focus on what you can have a say over, your kids. Sorry that's how it looks from here. The relationship with your kids is top priority.

[familyman2]

Don't be sorry Talaniman. What you say makes lots of sense. The heart-felt letters, the little gifts, the "thinking of you" phone calls are being discarded with no responses at all.
If they are working, she is showing no signs of it outwardly. I can't just keep doing the same thing that doesn't work. I think I will just give her some space for a while, and continue to focus on the kids. If she is to come to counseling, or to open up with me it'll be on her own notion. For my own sanity I need to detach for a while. She knows how I feel now, and my intentions. What more do I really need to do? I won't give up the idea of reconciliation, but giving her space may be the only way for her to realize what she might lose. Besides, I need to use my energy for regaining some confidence and esteem, and for preparing to move on if necessary.

I will say that this whole thing has been surreal in a way. The woman I love and am committed to is essentially gone. It is very difficult to believe. My best friend for 12 years now won't even make an effort to save the friendship. And she replaced me, seemingly so easily. It is painful and infuriating at the same time, which is why I am so torn between leaving her alone, and attempting to continue. Nothing worth while is ever easy I suppose.

It just doesn't make sense to me.