[tomder55]

I actually have one other observation . Jesus spoke so idiots like me could understand. I think when he talked of water he meant water ;not amniotic fluid .

[waltero]

I've noticed that some self-proclaimed Christians on this site have repressed the unity impulse. They can spot a supposed theological error from a mile away and have no trouble spinning out immediate shaming (and sassy) responses and calculated separations. Anyone different from us, in just about any way, could be a candidate for a verbal beat-down, or at least a relational Snub. Have we lost our heart to love like our savior does?

Watch out for those causing division.

I think when he talked of water he meant water

Was that hot water or cold water (maybe spring water)?

[Wondergirl]

So, Baptize your Baby. So, you were Baptized as a baby! Who cares?
What difference does it make...to others???

It made a difference to my parents and godparents and other relatives plus family friends who joyfully got involved in contributing to my Christian education. This included reading Bible story books to me, singing to me and teaching me Christian songs, teaching me how to pray and praying with me, etc.

It included those capable of believing. That did not include infants.

Thus, unbaptized and unbelieving infants and children go to hell.[/sarc]

[tomder55]

Was that hot water or cold water (maybe spring water)?

Walter now you are going beyond my understanding . I liken religious debates to the eternal question of how many angels fit on the head of a pin.

My parents were in the born again Catholic movement . No harm no foul We had a loving relationship

If I was wrong in having my daughter's head doused I will answer in the great beyond. If indeed that did not matter and the real baptism happens when there is understanding then that would be my daughter's business.

Let's just say I employed Pascal's wager and covered my A$$ .

[waltero]

It made a difference to my parents and godparents and other relatives plus family friends who joyfully got involved in contributing to my Christian education. This included reading Bible story books to me, singing to me and teaching me Christian songs, teaching me how to pray and praying with me, etc.
No harm no foul We had a loving relationship

I agree. I think that is Awesome, really I do.

This involves your Personal relationship with Jesus. Why should it matter to others? Who tries to discredit one's Baptism (talk about suppressing unity)? Oh, wait, you weren't baptized in the Name of Jesus. You weren't submerged, you weren't confessing your sins, you weren't baptized on a Sunday, you were submerged in lukewarm water...You need to be baptized according to my own understanding of baptism. I am the preacher man and what I say goes...Don't you know who I am?

You are unbiblical and therefore your Baptism is irrelevant, IRRELEVANT! Your Baptism is null and void!

Baptism allows us to demonstrate our connection with Jesus and with our brothers and sisters in Christ. We're all members of one body under the authority of the same Lord. But it's important to remember that Ephesians 2:8-9 says faith in Jesus Christ is the only requirement for salvation, not baptism.

[jlisenbe]

Watch out for those causing division.

You do realize that includes you?

Thus, unbaptized and unbelieving infants and children go to hell.

That is your conclusion, not mine.

Baptism allows us to demonstrate our connection with Jesus and with our brothers and sisters in Christ. We're all members of one body under the authority of the same Lord. But it's important to remember that Ephesians 2:8-9 says faith in Jesus Christ is the only requirement for salvation, not baptism.

That's a good observation. Now we could add that since we are told to be baptized, then obedience to Christ as Lord would lead us to baptism.

WG, I'd still like to know how you see conversion versus being born again. You seem to see them as significantly different. I just wonder how.

[Wondergirl]

That is your conclusion, not mine.

I was being sarcastic. Will edit accordingly.

[Wondergirl]

WG, I'd still like to know how you see conversion versus being born again. You seem to see them as significantly different. I just wonder how.

Conversion is a process. Being "born again" is immediate.

[jlisenbe]

I was being sarcastic. Will edit accordingly.

Then I will as well. That is a conclusion evidently held by no one here. [not sarc]

There is no Biblical basis at all for suggesting that infant baptism is equivalent to the new birth. I keep saying it, and you can come up with nothing to support your idea, so it would seem that that's that. (I like the triple use of "that".)

[Wondergirl]

There is no Biblical basis at all for suggesting that infant baptism is equivalent to the new birth.

I never said it was.

Would you say baptism is a new birth?

[jlisenbe]

I never said it was.

You did when you claimed you were born again at the age of 3 days.

Would you say baptism is a new birth?

I would say there is no Biblical reason to say that.

[Wondergirl]

You did when you claimed you were born again at the age of 3 days.

I was baptized by my father when I was three weeks old.

[Wondergirl]

Would you say baptism is a new birth?

I would say there is no Biblical reason to say that.

Luther pointed out in his 1526 Trinity Sunday sermon that the reason why man according to the sinful nature into which he is born cannot come into God’s kingdom, and why a different, new birth is necessary, a birth that occurs because of the work of the Holy Spirit.

[jlisenbe]

I was baptized by my father when I was three weeks old.

And, you claimed, born again.

Luther pointed out in his 1526 Trinity Sunday sermon that the reason why man according to the sinful nature into which he is born cannot come into God’s kingdom, and why a different, new birth is necessary, a birth that occurs because of the work of the Holy Spirit.

First of all, with all due respect, Luther is not the Bible. But even at that, nothing you quoted, as good and biblical as it is, has anything to do with infant baptism. But his comments would be a great topic for discussion. I like Luther.

[Wondergirl]

And, you claimed, born again.

First of all, with all due respect, Luther is not the Bible. But even at that, nothing you quoted, as good and biblical as it is, has anything to do with infant baptism. But his comments would be a great topic for discussion. I like Luther.

The current topic is being born again.

[Wondergirl]

And, you claimed, born again.

I was physically born in November. Three weeks later, I was spiritually born through baptism.

[jlisenbe]

And for the 79th time, there is nothing in the Bible that we can find to support that idea. " I was spiritually born through baptism."

[Wondergirl]

And for the 79th time, there is nothing in the Bible that we can find to support that idea. " I was spiritually born through baptism."

And so what? It a terrific idea!

[tomder55]

oh that original sin . Why should babies live with it ?

Jesus would not prevent them from grace because they did not understand

People were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
Luke 18

[jlisenbe]

People were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them.

They were not being baptized and certainly were not becoming Christians. There is no reason to believe that a person becomes a Christian simply by being baptized. Adolph Hitler received infant baptism and went through Catholic confirmation. Didn't seem to work very well, did it?

And so what? It a terrific idea!

So now it becomes clear. You are essentially saying, "I don't care if it's in the Bible. I like the idea, so I'm going with it." If you want to live by, "Thus sayeth Wondergirl", then go for it, but God is not bound by your ideas.

This is all really pretty simple. You think to yourself, "If we are to baptize infants for salvation, then surely somewhere this amazingly simple and wonderful idea will be clearly spoken of in the NT." So you do a word search for "baptize" to find all the many references which surely must exist to explicitly support this view. I suggest you do that and get back with me. You will need something a great deal more substantial than a reference to Jesus placing his hands on babies. Where are the references to infant baptism? (80th time??)