[waltero]

James said, "But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, but let your “yes” be yes and your “no” be no, so that you may not fall under condemnation."

I understand that. I also understand that King David was an oath-maker. Not only that, wouldn't you agree that we take an oath when giving our lives to Christ? My yes rarely means yes and my no rarely means no. The Oath that I committed to did not come from me. God will make it happen. And the thing on letting your yes be yes and your no be no...simply means, knowing when you say yes/no you say it as if the Lord is saying it...your word is true. I would guess that we, as Christians don't suffer condemnation when our yes means no and our no means yes. I understand the Oath that I took and I know that I need to be true to it. I think King David talks about the way God brings Oaths back to your remembrance, to feel that same elation that we once felt, having God's favor when we took such oaths. Psalms 61 I think.

I've come to learn the real reason Jesus and James said what they said. I took the oath when I was fasting and in heavy prayer, and I have come to the end of myself. If I hadn't been in such a situation while taking an oath, I'm sure I'd be suffering condemnation.

[jlisenbe]

Jesus said take no oaths. That's good enough for me. When I tell someone I will/will not do something, then I must be willing to honor my word.

There is no oath mentioned in the Bible in relationship to becoming a Christian, or at least not that I'm aware of.

[Wondergirl]

Jesus said take no oaths. That's good enough for me. When I tell someone I will/will not do something, then I must be willing to honor my word.

There is no oath mentioned in the Bible in relationship to becoming a Christian, or at least not that I'm aware of.

Oaths in Jesus' time were not like oaths now.

[jlisenbe]

How’s that?

[waltero]

There is no oath mentioned in the Bible in relationship to becoming a Christian, or at least not that I'm aware of.

And look, here we are talking about Baptism.
The first meaning of baptism is that it is a pledge. It is every bit as binding as a wedding vow. Oath vs pledge - One takes an oath in the name of someone or something that is greater, than, above him/her and which he/she holds sacred. to pledge has the element of a guarantee so when one pledges he solemnly promises to do something. The difference is that oath is more solemn more sacred and has a higher standing as an utterance.

Many are “for Christ” but few are “with Christ”. At bap­tism, we are buried with Christ through our pledge of commitment. We also have the Lord's supper - The basic meaning of a sacrament is an oath, an obligation, a vow. In legal termino­logy, it is a pledge.

I'm guessing most people even Christians have taken Oaths. Jesus says not to...if you so happen to take a Vow or oath, make sure it is acceptable to God...follow through with said vow as if your life depends on it...cuz it does!


And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila, having shorn his head at Cenchrea, for he had made a vow.

Found this:
PAUL'S MOTIVES.
The strong feeling of thankfulness for deliverance from danger, following upon fear which, as in nearly all phases of the religious life, has been the chief impulse out of which vows have grown. We have seen the fear, and the promise, and the deliverance, in the record of St. Paul's work at Corinth, and the vow of self-consecration, for a season, to a life of special devotion was the natural result. St. Paul had not learnt to despise or condemn such expressions of devout feeling.

Oaths in Jesus' time were not like oaths now.
How’s that?

Probably has more to do with making a pledge rather than a Vow. In baptism, you make a pledge in answer to a question...Opening up the possibility for the Father to step in for his child, in regard to infant baptism ( I know I could have worded that better).

[jlisenbe]

The first meaning of baptism is that it is a pledge

Where does the Bible say that?

Jesus says not to...if you so happen to take a Vow or oath, make sure it is acceptable to God

If Jesus says no, and you take an oath, how could that be acceptable to God? Wouldn't you be doing what Jesus said not to do?

When did Paul take that vow, before he became a Christian or afterwards? At any rate, vows are not the same as oaths.

The strong feeling of thankfulness for deliverance from danger, following upon fear which, as in nearly all phases of the religious life, has been the chief impulse out of which vows have grown.

Seems like speculation but interesting nonetheless.

[jlisenbe]

Found this contrasting vows and oaths. Worth thinking about.

The difference between an oath and a vow is that12345:

• A vow is a personal promise, usually made to someone else or to oneself, about something specific or general. A vow can be religious or secular, and does not involve any legal or institutional consequences.
• An oath is a solemn pledge or promise, usually made before an authority or a deity, to attest to the truth of a statement or to perform a duty or obligation. An oath can be legal or ceremonial, and involves some form of sanction or penalty for breaking it.

[waltero]

Jesus also said don't call anybody a fool. Yet Paul calls the Galatians Foolish.

[jlisenbe]

So are you suggesting that it is alright to disobey the teachings of Christ?

To tell someone they are behaving foolishly as Paul did to the Galatians is not the same as calling them a fool.

[waltero]

not the same as calling them a fool.

In Galatians 3:1, Paul says “O foolish Galatians”
Could we dispense with Wordplay for a moment? Paul said it. Maybe we should find out what Jesus meant when he said...?

[jlisenbe]

There is an enormous difference between telling someone they are being foolish versus saying they are fools. It is not word play.

Maybe we should find out what Jesus meant when he said...?

I completely agree.

[Wondergirl]

Oath of office, oath of allegiance to the king, oath in court to testify truthfully, Pledge of Allegiance to the US flag, 4H pledge, wedding vows, Boy Scout oath, Baptism vows, Confirmation vows,

[waltero]

You are always referencing Scripture to promote doctrine and understanding.

Are we supposed to just ignore Solomon and Psalms and Jesus calling out fools (Matthew 23:17)?
It is Wordplay, in the sense of Legalism. Words are always being redefined, they take on new meaning.
The reason for this might be that God doesn't want his people to accept his word interluded with man's dictionary...Man's interaction with the essence of Holiness. It is not as if a Christian will be condemned by saying a simple word (such as "fool"). But he's (Jesus) talking about the attitude of the heart. Some people used to try and live a Holy life by legalism. What Jesus is saying - is of course related to the motives and anger and so forth, that cause people to move in the direction of murder and the like. Even if they don't go so far to do so (such as murder). Those attitudes are a sin.

We can relate this right along with Oath's or Vow's. God knows that 99.9% of the time when a person makes a vow it is more of a deal-making situation (every time we want something let's make a deal with God), Attitude, and that not of the heart. I give you this you give me that. King David Made Vow's when He was in trouble...Big difference.

Then the Spirit of the LORD came on Jephthah...And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD...whatever comes out of the door of my house...who knows why he felt he needed to do this. Look how many times the Israelites made Vows, even to the extent that if they broke them they would be kicked out of God's Kingdom forever. Jesus said don't make oaths - according to the Law...when we speak of oath we speak it in our native tongue...it doesn't come from the heart.

I in no way am saying it is okay to make a vow to God.
I wasn't in my right mind when I made an Oath. I have to know it was acceptable to God because I am alive and kicking.

[jlisenbe]

Let's take em one at a time.

1. Oath of office. I wouldn't do it. I would simply do what Jesus said to do, which would be to let my "yes" mean "yes".
2. oath of allegiance to the king. Wouldn't do it.
3. oath in court to testify truthfully. Already discussed. You can simply affirm to do so.
4. Pledge of Allegiance to the US flag. Not an oath. If they ever take "under God" out of it, then I'm finished with it.
5. 4H pledge. Silly example.
6. wedding vows. We've already discussed how vows are less serious than oaths. Please keep up.
7. Boy Scout oath. It's not necessarily an oath. It's referred to as an "oath or promise". Boy Scout Oath, Law and Motto (usscouts.org)
8. Baptism vows and Confirmation vows. Refer to number six.

[jlisenbe]

We can relate this right along with Oath's or Vow's. God knows that 99.9% of the time when a person makes a vow it is more of a deal-making situation (every time we want something let's make a deal with God)

How do you know this?

It's interesting to me that when James makes this reference, he introduces it by saying, "Above all else..." That sounds important to me. He didn't say, "Hey guys, in that 0.1% of the time when it's actually serious, then don't make a vow or an oath! The rest of the time you don't have to worry about it." You can explain it away if you want, but I'm not going there.

Your position is made very difficult by the fact that we are not commanded to make oaths. So in Romans 17 or 18 or 19, Paul could have written, "Hey guys, if you really want to make a deal with God, then by all means use an oath." Make a deal with God? I can hardly believe you even suggest something like that. We don't make "deals" with God. We follow God by faith. The "deal" was already concluded at Calvary.

I in no way am saying it is okay to make a vow to God.
I wasn't in my right mind when I made an Oath. I have to know it was acceptable to God because I am alive and kicking.

I understand that we do foolish things when we get under pressure. Been there/done that on a number of occasions, including the court situation I related above. But we know we are acceptable to God when we walk according to His word. Our circumstances don't tell us that. A man could say, "It must be OK for me to be married to another man since, after all, I am alive and kicking."

[waltero]

Jesus said don't make oaths - according to the Law...when we speak of oath we speak it in our native tongue...it's not coming from the heart.

An oath to you is more of a legal document. I do this and if I don't I will suffer condemnation. Why did he say you might suffer Condemnation? Wouldn't automatic condemnation follow?? Not to mention you are forgetting the countless oaths that come from Scripture. God himself made oaths.

Everything has to do with the Heart. You are looking at it in a legalistic fashion. There is an evil spirit that leads people to work it out in such a way.

You can do anything as long as the attitude of your heart is right with God. You see God moving in Prostitution, Murder, Deceiving, etc.

Seems that you are wrapped up in a legalism in your approach to the Christian life.

[Wondergirl]

JL, again, please stop with the put-downs. And yes, the 4H pledge is a very special and honorable one. I was a 4H-er for several years and loved every minute of it.

[waltero]

Jesus said don't make oaths - according to the Law...when we speak of oath we speak it in our native tongue...it's not coming from the heart.

An oath to you is more of a legal document. I do this and if I don't I will suffer condemnation. Why did he say you might suffer Condemnation? Wouldn't automatic condemnation follow?? Not to mention you are forgetting the countless oaths that come from Scripture. God himself made oaths.

Everything has to do with the Heart. You are looking at it in a legalistic fashion. There is an evil spirit that leads people to work it out (their lives) in such a way.

You can do anything as long as the attitude of your heart is right with God. You see God moving in Prostitution, Murder, Deceiving, etc all throughout the scripture. I'm talking about Godly people doing these things. Just in case you misunderstand; the spirit in which I speak - Jacob deceiving - such and such becoming a prostitute, prophets murdering, Paul making a vow, Jesus calling Pharisees fools, etc...God allowed it because their heart was in the right place. But yes, I get it. It is best to stay away from doing such things as you believe to be wrong. What is wrong for you doesn't mean it's wrong for God... those whom God is moving through.

Seems that you are wrapped up in a legalism in your approach to the Christian life.

[jlisenbe]

Walter, I'm looking at it based on what Jesus said we are NOT to do. It's just like Eve in the garden. Don't eat the forbidden fruit became OK after a conversation with the enemy of her soul. You can rationalize it if you want to. Your choice. I have no intention of choosing to go against what he plainly and clearly said. The context of both the Matthew and James passages are very clear.

Why is it when someone decides to be obedient to the teachings of Christ, then there is usually another person around who wishes to be disobedient and thus accuses the first person of "legalism"? Obedience to Jesus is not legalism. Do you really think you will stand before God some day and tell Him you were disobedient because you didn't want to be a legalist???

JL, again, please stop with the put-downs. And yes, the 4H pledge is a very special and honorable one. I was a 4H-er for several years and loved every minute of it.

WG, we are talking about oaths. You came up with a list that included vows and pledges, but they are not oaths. If I conveyed that idea crudely, then my apologies.

[waltero]

Why is it when someone decides to be obedient

You do understand this goes both ways?