[tomder55]

There is no reason to believe that a person becomes a Christian simply by being baptized.

Us Catholics disagree. And with that I conclude my contributions to this religious discussion on the Current Events board .

[jlisenbe]

I understand you are appealing to Catholic doctrine. I am not since my appeals are only to the Bible. If you are right, then it would certainly seem that we'd have to consider Hitler to have been a Christian.

[tomder55]

You can count many more who were baptized and who consider themselves Christian who have a one way ticket to hell. That includes pastors and other religious leaders . So we can agree that being baptized is far from the only way to salvation. In fact I would argue that the innocent babe is by far more deserving than the lot of us .

[Wondergirl]

I understand you are appealing to Catholic doctrine. I am not since my appeals are only to the Bible. If you are right, then it would certainly seem that we'd have to consider Hitler to have been a Christian.

Hitler had free will, as do all of us. He was born to a practicing Catholic mother, Klara Hitler, and was baptized in the Roman Catholic Church. Hitler, after leaving home at 18 years old, lived in a men's home in Vienna and never again attended Mass or received the sacraments, thus rejecting the promises made at baptism.

[waltero]

There is no such thing as different truths.

This sentence, at the present moment, does not express anything that is now either true or false.

[jlisenbe]

You can count many more who were baptized and who consider themselves Christian who have a one way ticket to hell.

Completely agree, thus indicating pretty clearly that simply getting baptized, as an infant or otherwise, does not result in a new birth.

I would argue that the innocent babe is by far more deserving than the lot of us .

One of several things the NT is crystal clear on is that NONE of us are deserving. It is one of the central features of grace. God only saves the undeserving. Romans was written, in large measure, to make that very point. Paul concludes his wonderful discussion of this in chapter 3 where he writes, "21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus."

Conspicuously absent from his wonderful discourse on salvation is any mention of infant baptism.

thus rejecting the promises made at baptism.

He made no promises at birth since...he was an infant, and so incapable of that level of thought. And he, like us, was certainly not born again simply because his mother made some promises.

And please don't respond with, "Oh, you believe then that infants that die will go directly to hell and are outside of God's grace!!!" We are not even talking about that. We are discussing your contention that infant baptism results in the baby being born again. Just the content of this one post clearly would seem to show that is not the case.

[Wondergirl]

He made no promises at birth since...he was an infant, and so incapable of that level of thought. And he, like us, was certainly not born again simply because his mother made some promises.

I very carefully avoided saying "he". I said "the promises made" - by parents, godparents, relative, family friends to raise the child as a Christian.

[jlisenbe]

Yes, and I already made reference to that in my reply. Like infant baptism, the idea that a child's parents can make promises that result in the baby being born again is supported nowhere in the NT

[Wondergirl]

Yes, and I already made reference to that in my reply. Like infant baptism, the idea that a child's parents can make promises that result in the baby being born again is supported nowhere in the NT

That's not what I said or alluded to. Twist and shout!!!

[jlisenbe]

Then in what way was Hitler's infant baptism different from yours? You claim you were born again. Was he also born again as an infant?

[Wondergirl]

Then in what way was Hitler's infant baptism different from yours? You claim you were born again. Was he also born again as an infant?

Please tell me in which post I said I was born again.

[jlisenbe]

Go back to post 135 where, a whopping two days ago, I posted a link to where you said this. Good grief. Just to be on the careful side, here is the text.

"I was born again when I received the gift of Holy Baptism at the age of three days." Could it possibly be any clearer, Miss "Twist and Shout"? In post 176, yesterday, you alluded to it again. "I was physically born in November. Three weeks later, I was spiritually born through baptism." You also claimed, "My mind has been made up since I was three days old." So we are to believe a three week (day?) old infant, who cannot even decide what day it is, can somehow make up his or her mind about the Gospel?

Please don't go back to "cherry-picking" or some other device to somehow make it seem I did not understand you. Your statements have been quite clear.

[Wondergirl]

At three weeks, not days. I clarified that, had mistyped. (WG stepped up into the pulpit.) And the Holy Spirit can work wondrous things including babies et al. being born again because of Trinitarian baptism!

[jlisenbe]

Please tell me in which post I said I was born again.

You asked for the post in which you said that, as though you doubted you had. I supplied what you wanted. You're welcome.

As to infants being born again because of baptism, I am still waiting for any mention of such a thing in the Bible. (81st time??)

To be fair, I'm all in favor of parents, church-members, and others joining together in commitment to point a child towards Christ. That's a great idea and one which I practice and commend.

[Wondergirl]

John 3:5 -- "Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

The New Testament nowhere commands us to baptize infants, but neither does it anywhere forbid it.

[waltero]

Baptism results in the baby being born again

Whichever way you want to go (adult or Baby), being Baptized is not the means of remission or forgiveness of sins. So why focus on Babies?

[jlisenbe]

John 3:5 -- "Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Already discussed above.

The New Testament nowhere commands us to baptize infants, but neither does it anywhere forbid it.

An argument from silence is generally a poor one. And in this case, not only is the command lacking, but it's not even mentioned. Now I always am suspicious when someone advocates for an action that is not even so much as mentioned in the Bible. Surely Paul would somewhere have admonished everyone to "get those babies baptized, for goodness sake." Just seems really weak to me, weak to the point of just not being credible at all.

[waltero]

all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea”.

Many of the Israelites who came out of Egypt were unacquainted with God. And it was the desire of God to deliver them from bondage that they might have a relationship with Him. By this experience, the Israelites were dedicated to Moses as their leader. They recognized his authority and bound themselves to obey his instructions. As their “visible leader,” Moses passed on to the people God’s laws and requirements. Therefore, it might be said that by being baptized “unto Moses” they were pledged to obey God and worship Him. I'm pretty sure there were babies in that group. When A father or Mother has their Baby Baptized, It might be they are pledging themselves and their loved ones to God...Just as Jesus did for himself, or us.

[jlisenbe]

Sounds good until you put the scripture into context. "They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness." In other words, the blessing of God did not profit them since they were not walking by faith. Exodus makes that abundantly clear.

Even at that, there is no support at all for the idea that infant baptism results in being born again. The fact that infant baptism is never, ever, ever mentioned anywhere in the Bible should really close the door on the whole topic.

[Wondergirl]

Many of the Israelites who came out of Egypt were unacquainted with God. And it was the desire of God to deliver them from bondage that they might have a relationship with Him. By this experience, the Israelites were dedicated to Moses as their leader. They recognized his authority and bound themselves to obey his instructions. As their “visible leader,” Moses passed on to the people God’s laws and requirements. Therefore, it might be said that by being baptized “unto Moses” they were pledged to obey God and worship Him. I'm pretty sure there were babies in that group.

A terrific, very understandable post, waltero! And it fits in with the NT command to baptize the entire household (babies and small children included).