[jlisenbe]

If the Bible is not the living Word then you might want to ask yourself - what is it you believe in?

Jesus is the Living Word of God, and my faith is in Him, but the Bible is not Jesus. When I hold the Bible in my hand, I am not holding Jesus. If my Bible burns up in a housefire, Jesus has not burned up. When Jesus was crucified, it was not the Bible that was crucified. For that matter, when Jesus lived and walked the earth, much of the Bible (the NT) did not yet exist. You are completely confused.

Sadly, you are trying to excuse your lack of knowledge of the Bible by pointing the finger at others. If you really believed Jesus is the Bible, then you would read it nonstop. Clearly you don't, so I'd suggest you point that finger at yourself first. You don't even believe this mistaken idea you are proclaiming.

I will ask this again. If The Word is to be seen not heard, as you claim, then why is there such an emphasis in the NT on preaching the Word? Why would Paul have said, "I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome." Why did he say, "that is, the word of faith which we are preaching?" He wrote, "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you." He claimed, "But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles." He told Timothy, "Preach the word, in season and out of season." Peter said, "But the word of the Lord endures forever.” And this is the word which was preached to you." And there are MANY other passages which tell the importance of preaching.

Your are greatly mistaken. Now do people need to see the Gospel working in the lives of people? Absolutely they do, but not at the expense of the stopping of preaching as you are calling for. Your ignorance of the Bible is showing through.

[waltero]

JL, Could you please just stop and listen?

This comes straight out of Scripture.

He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus said to him, “Simon, son of Jonah, you are happy because you did not learn this from man. My Father in Heaven has shown you this.

And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it

"I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”[/B]

Take this for instance. Your Father tells you - "Children are to be seen not heard." Now try to understand this - "Out of the mouth of Babes." You have two sayings; one comes from secular and the other comes from Christian. When a child speaks, as in "out of the mouths of babes, where do you think that comes from? Is the Child simply repeating something they have heard, or have they seen something?

so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. Is not my word like fire, declares the LORD, and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces? Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. But Peter and John answered them, Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge, for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. The lion has roared; who will not fear? The Lord GOD has spoken; who can but prophesy?” Christ Jesus is the fulfillment of God's Word, You will find God's Word in the mouths of the Prophets, Apostles, and his Sons Jesus as well as all who are in Christ...in the Word. The Disciples didn't know the Scriptures. The apostles Knew the Scriptures because they were witnesses to the fulfillment of the Scriptures. One minute (when they were Disciples) they hadn't a clue. The next minute (after the death of Christ, the Scriptures came alive in them and they knew the Word of God backward and forward. Why do you think this is? Because the Scriptures have been fulfilled. God's Word Has been spoken, it went out and returned to him...not empty-handed.

You continue to look at things as you always have. - "That is about the most unbiblical thing I have ever heard." Yes, and Jesus went about doing the most unbiblical things the Pharisees have ever witnessed. They heard his words, the problem was that they could not see!

I've heard Preachers say - My Sermon isn't going to write itself." Of course, it won't...not if you don't believe in it. It has already been written, don't you see it?

The Word is to be seen not heard.

I hear you, Bro. All I've heard is you Preaching about how important it is for us to Preach. - "The Word is to be seen not heard." - I've said nothing (here) against preaching.

"I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”[/B]

[jlisenbe]

You continue to look at things as you always have. - "That is about the most unbiblical thing I have ever heard."

That's because your suggestion that the Word is not meant to be heard is just that...wildly unbiblical.

I've said nothing (here) against preaching.

Of course you have. You claimed the word is to be seen and not heard. If that is true, then preaching would be out.

I think your biggest problem is that you are careless in your statements. You claimed the Bible mentioned the children of the devil more than a hundred times. When it was pointed out that it was only one time, you just blew right past it and kept going. You also said, " But In Support of your understanding of John 3:16, you simply said 'It might have not been mentioned but it was inferred.' end of story." But that's not true. I never said that and have no idea of what you're referring to. And even now I suspect you will not admit that your statements were not correct. You will just ignore it all. The willful presenting of untrue statements is what liars do, and I don't think you want to appear to be a liar.

You listed a long collection of verses above, but they don't support your idea that the Word is to be seen but not heard. In fact, they contradict it. For instance, you posted, " for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard." And then there was, " God's Word Has been spoken, it went out and returned to him...not empty-handed." I'm convinced you are trying to say that the Word should be both seen AND heard and should be first seen with the eyes of the heart, but you took it too far. It's time to face that truth.

Now you do sometimes make statements that are interesting. For instance, there is this. "If you haven't noticed, the Church is in dire straits. They are hurting, running amuck. Do you think it might have anything to do with too many Preachers Preaching and never seeing and believing?" I think there are several factors at work in the church being in "dire straits", but poor, unenlightened preaching is certainly one of them.

[waltero]

Listen up.

let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak;

Paul is not saying to all parishioners; You shall not listen when a woman speaks. But if I am doing them and you don’t believe (the words coming out of my mouth) me, believe (can you see) the works themselves.


Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
A different perspective.

You claimed the word is to be seen and not heard. If that is true, then preaching would be out.

Says who? Jesus said he speaks what he and his Father have seen. He also goes on to say that we speak only what we hear - we, as in we all know this to be true in us also.

It's not a miss if one is able to Draw from the story of Jesus and the power of his life.

It seems every time I speak It's as if I am bruising your Ego.

By all means, Preach. But you will never have the Passion of preaching until you are able to believe by seeing the living Word (Bible - from where you derive the words that you speak) come alive.

[Wondergirl]

1. Seeing is done when using one's eyes.
2. Believing is done when using one's mind (brain, thinking ability) and heart.

Two separate activities that don't have to happen together.

A person can see without believing/understanding.
A person can believe/understand without seeing.

[jlisenbe]

It seems every time I speak It's as if I am bruising your Ego.

No. You're just wrong much of the time. You have no influence at all on my ego.

Sadly, you proved this to be true. " And even now I suspect you will not admit that your statements were not correct. You will just ignore it all. The willful presenting of untrue statements is what liars do, and I don't think you want to appear to be a liar."

A person can see without believing/understanding.
A person can believe/understand without seeing.

I think Walter is using the term "see" in the sense of gaining perception and clearer understanding.

[Wondergirl]

I think Walter is using the term "see" in the sense of gaining perception and clearer understanding.

Like when someone says, "Oh, I see now!", meaning "Oh, I understand now!"?

[jlisenbe]

I think so. We'll have to see what he says.

I do wish to see some honesty from Walter.

[waltero]

I think Walter is using the term "see" in the sense of gaining perception and clearer understanding.

This is not at all what I am saying.

[Wondergirl]

This is not at all what I am saying.

Then please explain as simply as possible.

[waltero]

I think I might have lost sight...we should always pray first.

Father, we thank you that we’re able now to turn our thoughts away from everything else and everyone else to you and to the Bible that you have given to us. We ask for your particular help that we might not do a disservice to its truth, either by our attitude or our demeanor or the words that we speak or think. Speak to us in the stillness of these moments, and be our teacher, Lord, we pray. For Jesus’ sake. Amen.

God’s Word was not given to us, ultimately, that our knowledge might increase but rather that our lives might be changed. You see, whenever faith doesn’t issue in love; whenever doctrine, however orthodox, is unrelated to the living of life; whenever we’re tempted to settle down for a kind of self-centered Christian experience that ignores the social and material needs of other people; or whenever our conduct doesn’t match the creed that we declare, then the Scriptures have something to say to us that we disregard at our peril. when we read the Bible, it obviously comes home to our hearts in different ways. We are, after all, individuals.


We’re all in this together. If you look at the book of James 3:2, he says, “Not many of you should presume to be teachers (Preachers). If you love me, show me.” That’s essentially the book of James. That’s what God is saying through his Word in James: “Don’t sing me no songs.” And we love to sing songs, don’t we? We understand the importance of that. “Don’t read me no rhymes. Don’t waste my time. Show me.” So in other words, if the Scripture takes root in my life, in your life, in our lives, then there will be a visible impact. In other words, our doctrine must inevitably find itself on display. Our faith must inevitably begin to function in a way that is unavoidable and difficult to miss.

This is not a walk around a gymnasium, pointing out the various exercise machines. This is an invitation to get on the exercise machines. And for people to be able to say there is an observable difference in you, and directly as a result of becoming the “doers of the word” which is provided for us.


If you go to the first verse, where James is introduced to us as the writer. “James,” he introduces himself. We can safely say that he is a brother of the Lord Jesus. I can detail that for you, but I won’t take time to do so. We might be tempted to say, “Well, why then, if he is the brother of Jesus, does he not introduce himself as the brother of Jesus?”

The Words you speak as a Preacher/teacher is not the way one goes about introducing himself as a Brother in Christ Jesus. They are just Words coming out of your mouth...everybody has words coming out of their mouth. Of course, if you are of Christ Jesus then those are the words you want coming out of your mouth...that is just who you are...who you have become. I've heard Preachers say; "Nobody can out-preach me." Preaching is not where it's at.

Jesus says he only speaks of what he and his Father have seen. What are they speaking of, what have they seen?

I can tell you what they have seen. They have seen the Word come alive in you, in me, in all who believe God's word to be true...the truth is marching on! The truth in his word, that which he has seen before he even uttered a breath. As soon as God uttered a breath - Whoop, there we are!!!

[Wondergirl]

Thanks so much for explaining as simply as possible. [/sarc]

How about posting I Corinthians 13 instead of all your confusing verbiage?

[jlisenbe]

Then please explain as simply as possible.

Good thing you didn't ask him to give a long, convoluted answer.

This is the kind of carelessness I referred to earlier. Walter claims James said, “Not many of you should presume to be teachers (Preachers). If you love me, show me.” Problem? James did not say that. He said the first half, but the, "If you love me, show me," is just made up. What he actually wrote was, "because you know that we will receive a stricter judgment." It would be wonderful if you would acknowledge your mistake.

We can safely say that he is a brother of the Lord Jesus. I can detail that for you, but I won’t take time to do so.

It's because James the Apostle was long dead. There's the detail.

[Wondergirl]

Waltero, what does this mean to you? "If you love me, show me."

After you respond, I will tell you what it means to me.

[tomder55]

You would think that having tampons in the men's rooms at Clemson would lead to a constipation epidemic on campus .

[waltero]

You would think that having tampons in the men's rooms at Clemson would lead to a constipation epidemic on campus.

This is more to WG & JL's liking. A subject matter they can relate to. I'm sure they are able to go on and on, and on about a subject such as this.

@WG - what does it matter? When you have the ultimate understanding of God's love already in your mind. You seem to know exactly what it is when talking about God's [unconditional] love. You're not going to gain anything other than your own understanding. One can not know God's love without first experiencing God's love...You seem to have summed it up with one word (that everybody is able to understand).

Problem? James did not say that.

You spend too much time looking at a single Verse. Look and see the entire picture and you might gain a better understanding of What is being shown.

God's Word can be interpreted in whichever way is right for you. Your interpretation might fit you, But your interpretation isn't meant to fit everybody...it is meant to fit God. Remember when Moses scolded Aaron? Aaron knew the true meaning of the Word while Moses was looking at the legal aspect. God is able to fit each individual on so many different levels.

You really need to stop yourself and cry hallelujah (as opposed to - That's not what it says, or That's not what it means) when somebody is willing to express their willingness toward God. If your brain isn't able to immediately pick up on something, you will simply disregard it as unbiblical...hearing a single excerpt you have already discredited it as false.

It's like WG -

Waltero, what does this mean to you? "If you love me, show me."
After you respond, I will tell you what it means to me.

Regardless of any response (If you love me you will obey my commands) that I may give, It will be overlooked being that WG has already determined to tell me what it means, regardless of my response... being blind, having no understanding of what I'm speaking right now.

[jlisenbe]

You spend too much time looking at a single Verse

One person's careless approach to the Bible is not another person's fault.

If your brain isn't able to immediately pick up on something, you will simply disregard it as unbiblical.

When one person's claim is unbiblical, then that is not the fault of a second person.

If a person on this site claims that 2 + 2 = 5 and someone points out that the solution of 5 is not correct, then the person needs to change his/her answer and not point an accusing finger at the person who corrected him or her.

[Wondergirl]

@WG - what does it matter? When you have the ultimate understanding of God's love already in your mind. You seem to know exactly what it is when talking about God's [unconditional] love. You're not going to gain anything other than your own understanding. One can not know God's love without first experiencing God's love...You seem to have summed it up with one word (that everybody is able to understand).

WG asks waltero, "What is your understanding of God's [unconditional] love?"

waltero said to WG, "One can not know God's love without first experiencing God's love..."
WG says, "Yes, I have experienced that."

[jlisenbe]

God's unconventional love?

Unconventional or unconditional?

[Wondergirl]

Unconventional or unconditional?

I was still typing. Autocorrect took over when I wasn't looking, when I was busy typing sentences after that. Then I proofread and saw that and fixed it.

Actually, after thinking about it, God's love for us is both unconventionnl AND unconditional!