[Wondergirl]

Please give just one example.

Why are there so many Christian church bodies and denominations? Why don't we all belong to one, the same one? Why aren't we all Catholic?

Those in Christ have been freed from the slavery of sin. If you find yourself committing the same sin every day...

I'm not talking about "committing the same sin every day."

You don't commit any sins at all, is that what I'm reading?

[waltero]

We are not free of sin, not yet. We sin every day.

Those in Christ have been freed from the slavery of sin. If you find yourself committing the same sin every day...

WG, I know where you are coming from. I've listened to you for years.


"We are just born that way and it's okay, and I love you." - I agree with you. But what I don't agree with, is you telling people that they are going to be okay just being who they are. Yes, it is okay, it's okay with me, it's okay with JL, and Jesus might be okay (with people being who they are) with it as well. One thing we do know for certain - God is not okay with it.

[jlisenbe]

Why isn't there only one Christian church? We should all be Catholic (but Luther changed that).

None of that has anything to do with differences in translations. That's what you asserted and concerning which I asked you for examples. The truth is, you can read the KJV, NKJV, NASB, ESV, Amplified version, CSB, NIV, and get to the same place. If you disagree with that, then please give specific examples.

100% correct.

So, Walter, you are not holy?

[Wondergirl]

None of that has anything to do with differences in translations. That's what you asserted and concerning which I asked you for examples. The truth is, you can read the KJV, NKJV, NASB, ESV, Amplified version, CSB, NIV, and get to the same place. If you disagree with that, then please give specific examples.

Why was the Catholic Church against translating the Bible?


In 1498, the Inquisition (Catholic court) stated that it was impossible to translate the Vulgate (Latin Bible) into any other language without making mistakes that would plunge unskilled and especially new converts into doubts about faith.

[jlisenbe]

You claimed, "It's those "differences between translations" that have caused doctrinal problems and divisions for centuries." I asked you to give one example. You have come up with no examples of translation issues that caused problems/divisions. It's because you don't know of any. Don't feel bad. I don't either.

The Catholic Church is corrupt and has been corrupt for centuries.

[Wondergirl]

You claimed, "It's those "differences between translations" that have caused doctrinal problems and divisions for centuries." I asked you to give one example. You have come up with no examples of translation issues that caused problems/divisions. It's because you don't know of any. Don't feel bad. I don't either.

There ya go again! I've been busy working on a Sunday sermon and trying to keep up with this thread. You will get an answer.

Btw, check Post #44.

Here ya go:

Martin Luther claimed that what distinguished him from previous reformers was that while they attacked corruption in the life of the church, he went to the theological root of the problem—the perversion of the church’s doctrine of redemption and grace. Luther, a pastor and professor at the University of Wittenberg, deplored the entanglement of God’s free gift of grace in a complex system of indulgences and good works. In his Ninety-five Theses, he attacked the indulgence system, insisting that the pope had no authority over purgatory and that the doctrine of the merits of the saints had no foundation in the gospel. Here lay the key to Luther’s concerns for the ethical and theological reform of the church: Scripture alone is authoritative (sola scriptura) and justification is by faith (sola fide), not by works.
https://www.britannica.com/event/Reformation

[waltero]

You said, "Then you will know that the two (holiness and sin) are mutually exclusive." I asked, "So do you sin?" If you do, then aren't you, according to your statement, not holy since sin and holiness are, "mutually exclusive"?

I think I know what you're getting at.

@JL: Are you asking; How can we, as sinners, become Holy if sin and holiness are, "mutually exclusive"? Answer; It is only through God's grace and the humility of Jesus Christ that we are able to share in His holiness (1 Corinthians 1:28–31; 2 Peter 1:3–4).

I don't think anybody should ever refer to themselves as Holy. I only know myself as a sinner...because that is all I bring to the table. I've heard pastors say - when I became righteous - When declaring something like that, it should always be followed with; In Jesus. Otherwise, a person is liable to get a big head. In fact, every time we speak, we should mention the name Jesus :-) Hoo YAh for Jesus!

[jlisenbe]

WG, there won’t be an answer. Post 44 had no answer. And your long answer above about Martin Luther is an answer to a question no one asked. It does nothing to support your idea that various translations have caused divisions and problems. It doesn't even mention translations!! Luther worked from the Latin Vulgate. His German translation which he later did was not one ounce responsible for his different views. You have come up with zero.

I don't think anybody should say that they are Holy. I only know myself as a sinner...because that is all I bring to the table.

It can be a difficult issue to work through. I think it would be proper to say, "I am holy in Christ." It is purely an issue of faith.

[Wondergirl]

There won’t be an answer.

Look again.

[waltero]

WG, I know where you are coming from. I've listened to you for years.


"We are just born that way and it's okay, and I love you." - I agree with you. But what I don't agree with, is you telling people that they are going to be okay just being who they are. Yes, it is okay, it's okay with me, it's okay with JL, and Jesus might be okay (with people being who they are) with it as well. One thing we do know for certain - God is not okay with it.

No response, WG? Maybe you finally see the error of your ways? No worries. I'm not about to Challenge anybody of that nature. Spread the love while letting them know we are all a mess and God is the only person that is able to straighten us out.

[jlisenbe]

Look again.

You have no answer. You seem to do this constantly. You are facing a question for which you have no answer, so rather than just be honest and admit it, you have started listing extraneous answers (such as the one above from Britannica about Luther) in the hope that maybe it won't be noticed. It never works, and it amazes me that you continue to try it.

So again, just for the record.

You claimed, "It's those "differences between translations" that have caused doctrinal problems and divisions for centuries." I asked you to give one example. You have come up with no examples of translation issues that caused problems/divisions. It's because you don't know of any. Don't feel bad. I don't either.

You'll have no answer. Perhaps you don't even understand the question?

Jesus might be okay (with people being who they are) with it as well. One thing we do know for certain - God is not okay with it.

Walter, Jesus and God are never in disagreement. One does not approve of something while the other disapproves.

[Wondergirl]

You have no answer. You seem to do this constantly. You are facing a question for which you have no answer, so rather than just be honest and admit it, you have started listing extraneous answers in the hope that maybe it won't be noticed. It never works, and it amazes me that you continue to try it.

So again, just for the record.

You'll have no answer. Perhaps you don't even understand the question?

I had then added -----

Martin Luther claimed that what distinguished him from previous reformers was that while they attacked corruption in the life of the church, he went to the theological root of the problem—the perversion of the church’s doctrine of redemption and grace. Luther, a pastor and professor at the University of Wittenberg, deplored the entanglement of God’s free gift of grace in a complex system of indulgences and good works. In his Ninety-five Theses, he attacked the indulgence system, insisting that the pope had no authority over purgatory and that the doctrine of the merits of the saints had no foundation in the gospel. Here lay the key to Luther’s concerns for the ethical and theological reform of the church: Scripture alone is authoritative (sola scriptura) and justification is by faith (sola fide), not by works.
https://www.britannica.com/event/Reformation

[jlisenbe]

Yes, I saw that and noted it TWICE in my answers. IT DOES NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION.

You claimed, "It's those "differences between translations" that have caused doctrinal problems and divisions for centuries." I asked you to give one example. You have come up with no examples of translation issues that caused problems/divisions. It's because you don't know of any. Don't feel bad. I don't either.

Your article does not even mention translation issues, so how on earth do you think it would be an adequate answer?

[Wondergirl]

WG, I know where you are coming from. I've listened to you for years.


"We are just born that way and it's okay, and I love you." - I agree with you. But what I don't agree with, is you telling people that they are going to be okay just being who they are. Yes, it is okay, it's okay with me, it's okay with JL, and Jesus might be okay (with people being who they are) with it as well. One thing we do know for certain - God is not okay with it.

No response, WG? Maybe you finally see the error of your ways? No worries. I'm not about to Challenge anybody of that nature. Spread the love while letting them know we are all a mess and God is the only person that is able to straighten us out.

Where the heck are you getting all this????

Yes, I saw that and noted it TWICE in my answers. IT DOES NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION. Your article does not even mention translation issues, so how on earth do you think it would be an adequate answer?

Catholic Church/pope - we are saved by our works
Luther - we are justified by faith

[jlisenbe]

Catholic Church/pope - we are saved by our works
Luther - we are justified by faith

And how did translation issues cause that division? That is, after all, what you claimed, and it's what I have raised as a question. Can you answer that, for that is the question. Both of them were working from the Latin Vulgate, so what other translation caused a problem?


For the fourth or fifth time.

You claimed, "It's those "differences between translations" that have caused doctrinal problems and divisions for centuries." I asked you to give one example. You have come up with no examples of translation issues that caused problems/divisions. It's because you don't know of any. Don't feel bad. I don't either.

[Wondergirl]

What do you want? The Latin from the Vulgate? Do you know Latin?

Ephesians 2
8 Gratia enim estis salvati per fidem, et hoc non ex vobis: Dei enim donum est:
9 non ex operibus, ut ne quis glorietur.

Vs.

James 2:20
Vis autem scire, o homo inanis, quoniam fides sine operibus mortua est?

[jlisenbe]

I don't know how to make the question any more simple, or to make my responses ("And how did translation issues cause that division?") any more simple, so I don't know what else to tell you. The translation being used was the same for both sides, so it didn't cause the problem as you alleged was happening. I just don't know what else to tell you other than to continue repeating the question until at some point, hopefully, you get it.

examples of translation issues that caused problems/divisions.

There are no translation issues in the ML example you are citing, so it is not an answer to the question. I do sincerely hope you can understand that.

[Wondergirl]

Are you Catholic, JL?

[jlisenbe]

Another non-answer. I guess I will have to supply your answer for you.

The only division I know of that is translation based would involve the small, small group who insist on handling snakes due to the Mark 16 passage, a passage that most likely was not written by Mark and is set off in italics in most modern translations to indicate that. Other than that, I know of no divisions caused by differences in translations. Neither, apparently, do you, so your statement was not correct. Now if you can accept that, we can move on.

[waltero]

I believe what you are saying is that the Holy Bible has become a misnomer.
Might I point out that you have said the same thing regarding Jesus's Holiness.

As if Jesus was able to keep his Holiness intact...next to God not being able to keep his holy word intact.
The Holy Bible still saves!