[Wondergirl]

When Satan tempted Jesus, Satan hadn't been defeated yet. That came later with the crucifixion and resurrection.

[waltero]

When Satan tempted Jesus, Satan hadn't been defeated yet.

Ok, that might be as far as Satan (sin) knew. And for us (Christians), that might be as far as we know, now. What of the Jews? They knew Satan (sin) to be defeated, as it has been written. They know a Messiah is coming. So we have all of human history - past, present, and future waiting for the coming of the Messiah. The Jews are still waiting as well as the Christians, still waiting...Time is still waiting for Jesus to come. Time is the Birthing of all that God has created. God's Word has come to life, in Jesus...if God's Word lives in you you will come to live in Jesus. As far as I know, Satan had been defeated as soon as God uttered a breath from his mouth.

[Wondergirl]

The first Adam brought sin into the world, but the last Adam (Jesus) succeeded in defeating sin and Satan.

[waltero]

The first Adam brought sin into the world, but the last Adam (Jesus) succeeded in defeating sin and Satan.

You could also say that the first Adam birthed sin into the world (you me), but the last Adam birthed Holiness into the world, thereby eliminating sin forever...only for those of us who have been reborn, of God. This is where the Bible comes in. The Holy Bible is Holy, it is inerrant. There is no sin living in it, it can not be subject to sin. The Bible can not sin - with this I mean that man can not manipulate it nor corrupt it. We must believe the Bible is as Jesus himself...incapable of sinning.

[jlisenbe]

man can not manipulate it nor corrupt it.

Not sure what you mean with this. The Bible is manipulated and corrupted all the time. Check out the Passion translation if you'd like to.

[waltero]

Not sure what you mean with this.

It can be used to manipulate and corrupt. I'm talking about translators purposely translating it to fit their own "sinful" purpose. or like when somebody believes that God did not put that in the Bible, man did...believing something should not be in the Bible. Owning the Bible...we must own it, own every jot and tittle.

[waltero]

I'll come back to this:

If you understand the fact that Jesus was born holy and sinless, Then you will know that the two (holiness and sin) are mutually exclusive...The participation in the life of God that we call “holiness” precludes sin.

Come on WG, you're an educated woman. What we have here is Holiness. This occurrence of Holiness supersedes the other. The newer Model (Jesus's/holiness) supersedes the older model (Adam's/sinfulness). These two events cannot happen simultaneously. Just as sin can not become Holy, Holy can not become sin.

Holiness and sinfulness are mutually exclusive.

Not only are holiness and sinfulness mutually exclusive, but Christ, being perfectly holy, knows and feels the horror and weight of sin more deeply than any of us sinful ones could—just as the purer a man’s heart, the more horrified he is at the thought of his neighbors being robbed or abused.

[Wondergirl]

It can be used to manipulate and corrupt. I'm talking about translators purposely translating it to fit their own "sinful" purpose. or like when somebody believes that God did not put that in the Bible, man did...believing something should not be in the Bible. Owning the Bible...we must own it, own every jot and tittle.

Then who is correct? Who "owns" the Bible that is accurate? There is no original Bible -- only copies.

[jlisenbe]

It's quite possible that you two are debating a topic that is really difficult to settle.

[waltero]

And again - I'll come back to this:

If you understand the fact that Jesus was born holy and sinless, Then you will know that the two (holiness and sin) are mutually exclusive...The participation in the life of God that we call “holiness” precludes sin.

Come on WG, you're an educated woman. What we have here is Holiness. This occurrence of Holiness supersedes the other. The newer Model (Jesus's/holiness) supersedes the older model (Adam's/sinfulness). These two events cannot happen simultaneously. Just as sin can not become Holy, Holy can not become sin.

Holiness and sinfulness are mutually exclusive.

Not only are holiness and sinfulness mutually exclusive, but Christ, being perfectly holy, knows and feels the horror and weight of sin more deeply than any of us sinful ones could—just as the purer a man’s heart, the more horrified he is at the thought of his neighbors being robbed or abused.

Do you still think - Jesus, who was, who is, and who is to come, has the option to sin? How could he who knew no sin have sin as an option? Jesus still lives. Jesus's life, now, is as his life has always been (always with us and having us with him). Why did Jesus get baptized, why was Jesus tempted, and why did Jesus pray as he did...it was for our benefit.

Who "owns" the Bible that is accurate

You do.

[jlisenbe]

If you understand the fact that Jesus was born holy and sinless, Then you will know that the two (holiness and sin) are mutually exclusive...The participation in the life of God that we call “holiness” precludes sin.

So do you sin? And if you do, does that mean you are not holy?

Who "owns" the Bible that is accurate?

A really evasive comment. It assumes that there are differences between translations that are sufficient to cause doctrinal problems. That is basically not true, but even at that, the Hebrew and Greek copies which scholars possess are able to get us to the truth, assuming a person wants to get there.

[Wondergirl]

A really evasive comment. It assumes that there are differences between translations that are sufficient to cause doctrinal problems. That is basically not true,

Then why aren't we all only Assemblies of God or only Lutheran -- or only Catholic or only Baptist or ... or ... or ...???

It's those "differences between translations" that have caused doctrinal problems and divisions for centuries.

[waltero]

So do you sin?

It's not so much the fact of whether we sin. It has more to do with giving ourselves over to sin.

Then why aren't we all only Assemblies of God or only Lutheran -- or only Catholic or only Baptist or ... or ... or ...???

For the same reason "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

It's those "differences between translations" that have caused doctrinal problems and divisions for centuries.

Because for some people, Jesus is more than a doctrine.

[Wondergirl]

It's not so much the fact of whether we sin. It has more to do with giving ourselves over to sin.

If we give ourselves over to sin, we are sinning.

[waltero]

If we give ourselves over to sin, we are sinning.

Was that a question? It is not us anything...it is sin. If you give yourself over to sin - loving sin, promoting sin, or (big one) believing your sin is no longer sin, then you have become one with sin...aka the devel.

[jlisenbe]

It's those "differences between translations" that have caused doctrinal problems and divisions for centuries.

Please give just one example.

It's not so much the fact of whether we sin

You said, "Then you will know that the two (holiness and sin) are mutually exclusive." I asked, "So do you sin?" If you do, then aren't you, according to your statement, not holy since sin and holiness are, "mutually exclusive"?

[Wondergirl]

A really evasive comment. It assumes that there are differences between translations that are sufficient to cause doctrinal problems. That is basically not true, but even at that, the Hebrew and Greek copies which scholars possess are able to get us to the truth, assuming a person wants to get there.

Why isn't there only one Christian church? We should all be Catholic (but Luther changed that).

[waltero]

You said, "Then you will know that the two (holiness and sin) are mutually exclusive." I asked, "So do you sin?" If you do, then aren't you, according to your statement, not holy since sin and holiness are, "mutually exclusive"?

100% correct.

[Wondergirl]

Was that a question? It is not us anything...it is sin. If you give yourself over to sin - loving sin, promoting sin, or (big one) believing your sin is no longer sin, then you have become one with sin...aka the devel.

Just committing a sin. We are not free of sin, not yet. We sin every day.

[waltero]

We are not free of sin, not yet. We sin every day.

Those in Christ have been freed from the slavery of sin. If you find yourself committing the same sin every day...