[Wondergirl]

Hellfire is the description that has come down to us today. It started in the NT.

[jlisenbe]

Hellfire is the description that has come down to us today. It started in the NT.

And so? In what way does that diminish at all what Jesus and the apostles said about the subject repeatedly?

[dwashbur]

Hellfire is the description that has come down to us today. It started in the NT.

I don't see anybody asking "why is that?" My take: he's using something everybody fears - raging fire - to describe the indescribable. Peter referred to the same place as chains in outer darkness, I believe it was he who used the word "tartarus", they are all expressions for the same thing: something so far beyond terrifying there's no way to describe it to finite minds. We have to use illustrations, euphemisms, and metaphors.

Fire is just the most common one. Any images of "hell" beyond that usually come from Dante, not Jesus.

[Wondergirl]

And I have questions. Will there be babies and young children in heaven? Will our pets who are supposedly waiting for us at the Rainbow Bridge be in heaven with us? And with all those people in heaven, how will I find my two grandmas and grandpas? What will we be doing? I've heard we'll be singing praises all the time, but certainly God has more productive activities in mind for us.

[waltero]

@JL; post 87.

I would think that telling people about that relationship would be one of the great goals of our lives.

Similar to Casting pearl before swine.

I believe the question was, "Is John 3:16 a love scripture?" It most certainly is.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Main Points For/so : These are link words expanding or explaining something that was said earlier. Context : We need to look at the preceeding verses 14 and 15. “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.” This refers to an event in Numbers 21:4-9. God was angry with the Israelites because of their sin of ingratitude. So God sent poisonous snakes which killed many of them. So they cried out to God. God refused to take the snakes away but told Moses to erect a bronze snake on a pole so that when the people who had been bitten looked at the snake they would not die. God provided a way of escape. Thus, in the same way . . . . . . v 16. Loved : past tense. (Not “loves”) Agape love – a love of action, that responds to a need.

Jesus told us about His relationship with His Father

In as much as he told us about our relationship with the Father...still, nobody ever understood. and many still don't understand...just the same as sinners not understanding their relationship with Satan and hell...We need not understand, we need just believe!

When I first posted John 3:16 as not being a love verse, somebody spoke as if I was crazy, and making his life's work meaningless. Do you not understand? What does "your" life's work have to do with anything? We are empty vessels, the work has already been done. it is not us that does anything.

the "rime or reason" for your belief???

THere is no rime or reason. It was not I that chose. God apparently chose me.


How many Christians would believe God loves Lucifer (of course God loves Lucifer, how could he Not love)?

I am a clay jar for sure. I am not empty

You'd be better off if you were empty. Being filled with your Idea of Jesus or the holy spirit is still you. You need not Argue the truth. You need not try to convince by arguing. It's much like prophecy, you are speaking but it is not you, being that you don't even know what your saying. I am an empty vessel, not knowing what I am doing or where I am going. I know nothing of truth but I know the Truth lives in me and I will allow it to guide me.

The discussion seems to always flow in the direction of Hell. Just like this world and the kingdoms of this world. We need not be concerned with this world or the kingdoms of this world. We need to focus on the Kindom of Heaven that is within us. Don't become distracted by the World and the things of this world...the world that provides for us and the world that we live and love.

[jlisenbe]

I don't see anybody asking "why is that?" My take: he's using something everybody fears - raging fire - to describe the indescribable. Peter referred to the same place as chains in outer darkness, I believe it was he who used the word "tartarus", they are all expressions for the same thing: something so far beyond terrifying there's no way to describe it to finite minds. We have to use illustrations, euphemisms, and metaphors.

While I don't completely agree with that, I can live with it. The primary point is, as you said, the indescribable, meaning a terrible, eternal place which you would not wish to spend eternity in.

Fire is just the most common one. Any images of "hell" beyond that usually come from Dante, not Jesus.

The expression "fire" came directly from Jesus and no one else, so I don't really see why that would be compared to what Dante might have said.

[jlisenbe]

In as much as he told us about our relationship with the Father...still, nobody ever understood. and many still don't understand...just the same as sinners not understanding their relationship with Satan and hell...We need not understand, we need just believe!

When I first posted John 3:16 as not being a love verse, somebody spoke as if I was crazy, and making his life's work meaningless. Do you not understand? What does "your" life's work have to do with anything? We are empty vessels, the work has already been done. it is not us that does anything.

FOR..GOD...SO...LOVED. It explains the motive for the remainder of the verse. To say it is not a love verse is foolish.

You'd be better off if you were empty.

Sorry Walter, but that is just a foolish, foolish statement that is completely apart from NT teaching. Paul said, "But we have this treasure in clay jars, so that the extraordinary power belongs to God and does not come from us." You can also look at Gal. 2:20. You are simply posting your own ideas which came from who knows where.

I am an empty vessel, not knowing what I am doing or where I am going. I know nothing of truth but I know the Truth lives in me and I will allow it to guide me.

If the truth is in you, then you are not an empty vessel. Make up your mind.

In as much as he told us about our relationship with the Father

So then it is no longer, according to you, a "personal relationship". You really believe that?

[Wondergirl]

I can live with that. The primary point is, as you said, the indescribable, meaning a terrible, eternal place which you would not wish to spend eternity in.

And who qualifies for this terrible, eternal place? The mentally ill? People who were raised with few if any boundaries? People who believe in another religion, not Christianity? People who have never heard of Jesus? Who else?

[jlisenbe]

Who qualifies? Everyone.

[Wondergirl]

Who qualifies? Everyone.

If that's true, there will be lots of room in heaven.

[jlisenbe]

All have sinned and fall short…

[waltero]

Read between the lines. You argue as if it is all about theology. it's more than doctrine and theology. it's more than the written word...it is life.
If some Jews of yesterday were saved, would you not think that some Jews of today would be saved as well? It's more than a name, it's more than a word, act, or anything else you are able to think up.
You act as if the scriptures is a science book. a piece of literature that must be argued and sought after before it is able to bring any real meaning.

A person need Die before entering into life. Jesus didn't teach us how to live, he taught us how to Die. We don't desire to live, in order to preach the Gospel. That's why the Scriptures are not something that can be taught (so stop trying).

[jlisenbe]

It’s just all your own unsupported opinion. I don’t accept an idea as being true simply because someone claims to have read between the lines. Such observations are common with people whose thinking lies outside of the Bible. He cannot appeal to any Bible teaching, so he instead goes down the road of “reading between the lines” which can take a person just about anywhere.

[waltero]

Nobodies asking you to accept an idea as being - True to you. Hey look, "WE DON'T KNOW THOSE GUYS," they are using the Name Jesus...leave them alone! Simply because you don't understand it (formulate it in your mind) doesn't mean it is false. Gaining an understanding by simply reading is not going to affect you in the same way as gaining an understanding through experience. Everybody experiences different things in different ways.
Yours is not to decide whether it is true or false. Have you ever heard of somebody speaking in tongues (not knowing what they are saying) and going to the country of the tongues that they speak? how about that? wandering aimlessly, speaking a language they have no understanding, and simply speaking the voice of the Spirit. Does your heart flutter when God speaks to you? We are in the "time of Creation." Time is it. This is the time (in all of eternity) that God has spoken. We are still in the creation part of eternity. God's Word is all there is...His Word is creating all things. There is no other Word, there is no other life...no other word/life that will enter eternity. Your words, your life is just for now, it will die and pass away along with everything else.

How does God love Jesus? What does it mean for God to love Jesus? AKA, God to love himself???
Through all of creation is God able to love his SON, Jesus.

We are God's Love. Not because we love, but because God loves Jesus. DOn't you get it? None of this is for us, it is all for Jesus. All of Creation is meant for Jesus...it really has nothing to do with us. We sing, worship, and praise all to his glory...that is us for all eternity - Praise, worship... that's it.

[jlisenbe]

More unsupported opinion which stands apart from the Bible. I would really suggest you read and accept the teaching of Scripture.

[waltero]

I would really suggest you read and accept the teaching of Scripture.

You mean Just like the Apostle Paul? Paul did not teach the Scriptures...Paul brought the Scriptures to life.
You don't need to understand a word I'm saying. you don't even have to believe it. I pray that one day you will believe for yourself. Do you know what the learned believed before Christ's first coming? You might find yourself (and the Church) having those same beliefs/understandings.
Sorry - the Church is in trouble (according to Scripture)...do you understand? Pay no mind, Go on as if nothing is wrong.

[Wondergirl]

How is -"the Church in trouble (according to Scripture)"?

You meant to add the word "only". "Just like the Apostle Paul? Paul did not only teach the Scriptures...Paul brought the Scriptures to life."

[jlisenbe]

Paul did not teach the Scriptures.

Oh brother. From Acts 2. "They were devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship..." There are literally dozens of others. As I have said, your ideas do NOT come from the Bible. They come from your own thoughts.

[dwashbur]

Fire is just the most common one. Any images of "hell" beyond that usually come from Dante, not Jesus.
The expression "fire" came directly from Jesus and no one else, so I don't really see why that would be compared to what Dante might have said.

Please notice that I said "fire" is a common one and anything *beyond* that comes from Dante.
That annoying word "beyond".

[jlisenbe]

You meant to add the word "only". "Just like the Apostle Paul? Paul did not only teach the Scriptures...Paul brought the Scriptures to life."

Good insight, WG. The additional "only" would make a lot of difference.