[Athos]

Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15:14-19 “If Christ has not been raised then our preaching is useless, and your believing it is useless. Indeed, if our hope in Christ has been for this life only, we are the most unfortunate of all people” (1 Corinthians 15: 14-19).

Christ's preaching included many parables and lessons that are familiar to all. The Beatitudes, the Sermon on the Mount, the Prodigal Son, etc., to name only a few of the more famous ones.

Is Paul saying these things are now useless if Christ has not risen from the dead? Does this mean Paul is denying the validity of the moral teachings to stand on their own unless Jesus rose from the dead?

[Wondergirl]

And what proof is there for us that Jesus rose from the dead? Maybe those parables are just moral lessons for us for this life.

I sure wish dwashbur was here to give us his excellent and learned point of view. Will PM him, hoping he'll see it.

[Athos]

Maybe those parables are just moral lessons for us for this life.

Paul seems to deny even that unless Jesus rose from the dead.

I sure wish dwashbur was here to give us his excellent and learned point of view. Will PM him, hoping he'll see it.

His take is always welcome.

[dwashbur]

Okay, by popular demand (Phoebe Popular, my barber) I'll give it another try.

Seriously, a direct request from someone I respect a lot. We'll see how it goes.

Wondergirl
And what proof is there for us that Jesus rose from the dead? Maybe those parables are just moral lessons for us for this life.

That sounds like a distinct topic to me.

Athos
No Resurrection, No Faith?

Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15:14-19 “If Christ has not been raised then our preaching is useless, and your believing it is useless. Indeed, if our hope in Christ has been for this life only, we are the most unfortunate of all people” (1 Corinthians 15: 14-19).

Christ's preaching included many parables and lessons that are familiar to all. The Beatitudes, the Sermon on the Mount, the Prodigal Son, etc., to name only a few of the more famous ones.

Is Paul saying these things are now useless if Christ has not risen from the dead? Does this mean Paul is denying the validity of the moral teachings to stand on their own unless Jesus rose from the dead?

This has to be put into context. He's talking about the resurrection of the dead at the end of the world/age/whatever, at Jesus' return. He described this as a "blessed hope" (Titus 2:13). Part of the great hope of the Christian is eternal life as a resurrected being on a new, perfect Earth (Rev. 21-22, see also 1 Thessalonians 5).
He isn't saying those teachings are useless without the resurrection. He's saying without it, there's nothing that really makes Jesus stand out from any other great teacher, because all we have is this life. We also have to bear in mind what Paul went through to preach Jesus. If Jesus never rose, what was the point of all that? The whole reason Jesus is the watershed of history is because of his resurrection. That was the earliest message (Acts 2ff): God raised him from the dead and has made him the Lord to whom we all must answer.
Hence, carrying out the content of the parables, teachings, etc. isn't just because they're good ideas, it's because Jesus has created a new life in me, and those things are part of living that new life while looking for the hope of eternal life.
I get frustrated when I hear people make his teachings an either/or thing: either he taught us how to live here, or he offered us pie in the sky. He did both. Part of what's going on in 1 Cor 15 is, Paul is ragging on the Corinthians for spending so much time on these questions instead of doing the stuff. But at the same time he's ragging on those who ONLY do the stuff and don't understand the eternal aspect and consequences of their actions. Both are extremes and both are wrong, because Jesus taught us to do both.

[Athos]

...people make his teachings an either/or thing

Interesting point - there definitely is a tendency to make either/or propositions of statements attributed to Jesus. I think you're onto something by seeing them as having wider (or both) meanings.

Other interesting points:

DW, "That sounds like a distinct topic to me". Referring to WG post "And what proof is there for us that Jesus rose from the dead? Maybe those parables are just moral lessons for us for this life."

Another from DW - "Part of the great hope of the Christian is eternal life as a resurrected being ..." From my readings in religion, every single religion without exception (excluding the bizarre ones) promises a continuation of life after death, even when the original self-awareness is gone as in reincarnation. Could this be the source of the religious impulse? It doesn't necessarily exclude the notion of a supreme God or the Jesus story.

Finally from DW - "God raised him (Jesus) from the dead and has made him the Lord to whom we all must answer." Does this apply to those who reject Jesus as God? Or to those who never heard of Jesus? Or to those born a thousand years before the birth of Jesus?

[dwashbur]

From my readings in religion, every single religion without exception (excluding the bizarre ones) promises a continuation of life after death, even when the original self-awareness is gone as in reincarnation. Could this be the source of the religious impulse?

Could you expand on this a little? I want to be sure I follow.

[Athos]

Could you expand on this a little? I want to be sure I follow.

Not sure I can say more than I already said. I'll give it a try.

Religions that believe in reincarnation (a return to normal life after death to work out Karma) agree that the one reincarnated does not remember the previous life, although some exceptions have been noted in the literature. They include Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism. Hinduism can be seen as the mother religion of the others, much like Judaism is the mother religion of Christianity and Islam.

Ancient Greece - The Greeks believed that people died and ended up in Hades, a gray and misty place where the lord of the dead ruled . Incidentally, Jerome, in his somewhat faulty translation of the Bible into the Vulgate, morphed this idea of Hades found in the OT into our modern notion of Hell, a fiery eternal torture chamber.

Japan - In Shintoism, the dead enter a gloomy underground place called Yomi, where a river separates the dead and the living. The Yomi is a place much like the Greek Hades. The followers of this religion believe in ancient gods and spirits called Kami, and they believe that some human beings can become kami after they die.

China Traditional Religion - This fascinating religion is a combination of Taoism (The Way), Confucianism, and traditional Chinese religion. Those who live accordingly believe in a peaceful life after death, one that an individual can attain through performing specific rituals and showing great honor to ancestors.

Christianity, Islam and Judaism – similar and familiar ideas re the continuation of life after death.

North Korea - Juche – eternal life after death with the Dictator of North Korea – very bizarre.

These religions account for most of the human population.

If this explanation isn't satisfying, ask again in a more specific way and I'll try again.

[Wondergirl]

And when Native Americans (especially warriors and hunters) died, they believed they went to the Happy Hunting Ground -- self explanatory!

[dwashbur]

If I'm understanding the overall idea, humans feel the need to see something beyond death and that has led to all these versions of afterlife. Do I have that right?
It reminds me of the old ditty. Sometimes old ditties have a lot of wisdom in them. It says, there's a God-shaped hole in all of us, and much of life's quest is trying to find what's supposed to fill it.

How'd I do?

Finally from DW - "God raised him (Jesus) from the dead and has made him the Lord to whom we all must answer." Does this apply to those who reject Jesus as God? Or to those who never heard of Jesus? Or to those born a thousand years before the birth of Jesus?

Those who reject Jesus as God, I don't know. Can you receive his salvation and new life without that specific idea? I think so, because the earliest believers hadn't fully sussed out all the implications of that idea yet. JWs, for example, believe Jesus was the first created being, though they have a real tendency to befuddle themselves as to what that really means. Still, if one trusts in Jesus as their savior and reaches out to him, does he respond? I think so. As for those who haven't heard and who lived before Jesus, as I've said before: Idunno. I figure God does.

[Athos]

If I'm understanding the overall idea, humans feel the need to see something beyond death and that has led to all these versions of afterlife. Do I have that right?

Yes.

It reminds me of the old ditty. Sometimes old ditties have a lot of wisdom in them. It says, there's a God-shaped hole in all of us, and much of life's quest is trying to find what's supposed to fill it.

Yes, again.

How'd I do?

A+.

As for those who haven't heard and who lived before Jesus, as I've said before: Idunno. I figure God does.

Fair enough.

My belief is that personal salvation depends on behavior, not on belief.

[jlisenbe]

My belief is that personal salvation depends on behavior, not on belief.

Then you would have a pretty significant disagreement with the book of Romans, and not to mention with Jesus himself.

[Wondergirl]

My belief is that personal salvation depends on behavior, not on belief.

I agree. Jesus said, "Love one another." And then there's I Corinthians 13, especially verse 2:
"If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing."

[jlisenbe]

The 1 Cor. passage never says loving works provide salvation.

Rom. 3. 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

This is essentially the conclusion of Paul's brilliant passage where he demonstrates that sinful man cannot meet the lawful standard of God. It is why the cross was necessary. If we could become right with God by our behavior, then the cross would have been needless.

[Athos]

I agree. Jesus said, "Love one another." And then there's I Corinthians 13, especially verse 2:
"If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing."

That's a terrific passage, WG. It fits perfectly into salvation being from behavior, not belief. I knew of that passage, but I never thought of posting it. It sure explains and supports actions. Belief is not to be ignored for a Christian, but it is secondary.

[Wondergirl]

My beloved transgender friend is a Wiccan:

"Jesus said that it was not by faith and ritual that one comes to God, but through self-knowledge and acts of kindness.He also told us there were plenty of rooms in the Mansion — everyone comes to God in the end, through the different paths."

And

"He encouraged people to follow in his footsteps, that is, to live as he lived, to love one another."

[jlisenbe]

"Jesus said that it was not by faith and ritual that one comes to God, but through self-knowledge and acts of kindness

Where did he say that?

everyone comes to God in the end, through the different paths.

Hmm. "13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." In another place Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father but by me." So it would seem you can agree with your pagan friend or with Jesus, but not with both.

[dwashbur]

Wondergirl
Quote Originally Posted by Athos View Post
My belief is that personal salvation depends on behavior, not on belief.
I agree. Jesus said, "Love one another." And then there's I Corinthians 13, especially verse 2:
"If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing."

But we also have "We love, because he first loved us" and "This is how they will know you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." It's all based on what he did, on trust in him, and on new life being put into a person so they're capable of God-type love. Simply reducing it to "love one another" out of context and again, Jesus becomes nothing special. Lots of people have said stuff like that. So what makes Jesus so special if everything is just based on behavior?

[Wondergirl]

It's all based on what he did, on trust in him, and on new life being put into a person so they're capable of God-type love.

Yes, exactly! That's what I was leading up to. 1 Corinthians 13 says it well. Jesus is our example, our guide, in how to love and whom to love.

[Athos]

So what makes Jesus so special if everything is just based on behavior?

If this refers to me, I did not say that "everything just depends on behavior". I said, "Belief is not to be ignored for a Christian, but it is secondary."

For those who never heard of Jesus, or who reject Jesus as God, belief in Jesus does not matter at all.

[Wondergirl]

And that's a concern of mine. What about all those people who never heard of Jesus? Are they saved?