[Athos]

President Zelenskyy of Ukraine made a great speech to Congress tonight, thanking America for its help in Ukraine's war with Russia. Encouraging continued bi-partisan support, he compared it to the American struggle for independence and survival citing Saratoga and the Bulge.

It was the greatest war-time speech since Churchill in 1941.

[tomder55]

He is a good actor . Madam Mimi said the same thing about the address. If I were he I would also appreciate the extra $45 billion coming his way . He made it a point that ($ 100 billion in aid total) is still not enough . Hey he knows that Congress is prepared to give America a great going away FU in the form if $1.7 trillion spending bill as they depart . So an additional $45 billion in monopoly bucks is small potatoes to those who don't have to shell it out .



He will fight the Russians to the last American buck and America will fight Russia to the last Ukrainian,.

As the swamp shells more and more monopoly $$ to him ,have they asked for an accounting of where it goes ? I know some of it is going to emptying our strategic supplies of weapons . So it is good for the military industrial complex.

Back in the Iraq war opponents spoke of mission creep and exit strategy . Well Clueless already told us the exit strategy . He wants regime change in Russia. He and the other SWAMP neo-cons even set the stage for the conflict by insisting that Ukraine be invited to join NATO. Yes Ukraine cannot do it by itself . We are being prepped to enter the war just like Lend Lease prepped us for entry into WWII . So yes Zelinsky's address is comparable to Churchill's 1941 Christmas address .


The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury (George Washington )

[jlisenbe]

Amazing how many people support the feds giving more money to Ukraine so long as it doesn't cost them anything. No new taxes will be necessary since we will just print the money or borrow it. It's yet another example of cost-free charity which liberals hide behind in order to look benevolent.

[Athos]

He is a good actor

So you prefer Putin to Zelenskyy? Like your boy Trump?

Madam Mimi said the same thing about the address.

Not the way YOU mean it.

If I were he I would also appreciate the extra $45 billion coming his way

Of course he appreciates it. He said so in just those words.

He will fight the Russians to the last American buck and America will fight Russia to the last Ukrainian

How would you do it?

I know some of it is going to emptying our strategic supplies of weapons . So it is good for the military industrial complex.

That's what happens in a war. Nothing new there.

Joe already told us the exit strategy . He wants regime change in Russia.

As an American, don't you want the same thing? Or, like Trump, do you support Putin? Let us know.

He set the stage for the conflict by insisting that Ukraine be invited to join NATO.

Putin invaded Ukraine. Rewriting history is a no-no.

We are being prepped to enter the war just like Lend Lease prepped us for entry into WWII

Ever hear of Pearl Harbor?

yes Zelinsky's address is comparable to Churchill's 1941 Christmas address

Glad you agree. Both were brilliant orations.

[tomder55]

Originally Posted by tomder55
He is a good actor



So you prefer Putin to Zelenskyy? Like your boy Trump?

why do I have to pick a side ? Stalin and Hitler were at war and I woud've picked neither . Sadam and the Ayatola AS$hola were at war and I hoped they would bleed both their countries dry . Let's not pretend about Zelinsky . He has many authoritarian instincts .

He will fight the Russians to the last American buck and America will fight Russia to the last Ukrainian


How would you do it?

Not our concern . Did we rush to aid Georgia when Russia attacked ? Did we rush to aid Ukraine when Putin seized Crimea in 2014 ? The emperor sings a different tune now than then.

I know some of it is going to emptying our strategic supplies of weapons . So it is good for the military industrial complex.


That's what happens in a war. Nothing new there.

If it was our war then yes

Joe already told us the exit strategy . He wants regime change in Russia.


As an American, don't you want the same thing? Or, like Trump, do you support Putin? Let us know.

Now you are getting close to what is happening .But you got the narrative a bit backwards . I think this obsession with Putin is just more TDS . It has been indisputably proven the charges against Trump were bogus and trumped up ;and the Dems and never Trumpers can't let it go .

We are being prepped to enter the war just like Lend Lease prepped us for entry into WWII


Ever hear of Pearl Harbor?

Wrong war . Lend Lease began in March 1941 10 months before Pearl Harbor and it was to aid England and Russia to beat Germany ... That was the war Roosevelt was determined to enter .

yes Zelinsky's address is comparable to Churchill's 1941 Christmas address


Glad you agree. Both were brilliant orations.

What they both have in common was that they saw American material aid will eventually lead to American blood being spilt .

If I were he I would also appreciate the extra $45 billion coming his way


Of course he appreciates it. He said so in just those words.

And he has swamp critter Yertle saying that giving away American monopoly bucks to Ukraine is America's # 1 priority . I wonder what is his cut . He already sold out to the Chinese so it doesn't surprise me that he thinks American money is better spent in Ukraine than dealing with the scores of domestic issues that needs to be addressed

[Athos]

why do I have to pick a side ?

Why? Because the nation of which you are a citizen, has opted to support democracy against the biggest terrorist on the planet. That's why.

Stalin and Hitler were at war and I woud've picked neither . Sadam and the Ayatola AS$hola were at war and I hoped they would bleed both their countries dry

These comparisons are so lame, I'm speechless (and that's not the norm for moi).

Let's not pretend about Zelinsky . He has many authoritarian instincts

Who's pretending? The guy's a hero in every freedom-loving country on the planet. Instincts are one thing - actions another. Trump, of course, is totally ANTI-authoritarianism, right?

Not our concern . Did we rush to aid Georgia when Russia attacked ? Did we rush to aid Ukraine when Putin seized Crimea in 2014 ? The emperor sings a different tune now than then.

So your answer is, do nothing? We should start calling you Neville.

If it was our war then yes

It is the war of all who condemn the invasion by a fascist country against a democratic (small d) country.

I think this obsession with Putin is just more TDS

Putin's murders of his own people and now his causing hundreds of thousands of young barely-trained Russian soldier deaths in a terror-driven invasion of his neighbor is TDS?? How does that kool-aid taste?

It has been indisputably proven the charges against Trump were bogus and trumped up

That's a complete fabrication, and you know it. Mueller cited ten obstruction of justice crimes, and the Jan 6 committee referred several felonious crimes by Trump to the DOJ. Mueller knew that Trump couldn't/wouldn't be prosecuted (by a friendly AG) while he was president, so he did his duty, named the crimes and waited for the wheels of justice to turn. That is happening as I write this. They are turning.

The Dems and never Trumpers can't let it go

You don't let major crimes "go" until the perp is fitted for an orange jumpsuit.

Wrong war . Lend Lease began in March 1941 10 months before Pearl Harbor and it was to aid England and Russia to beat Germany ... That was the war Roosevelt was determined to enter

On December 8, that was the war Roosevelt DID declare! Why n the world do you think that was a different war?

What they both have in common was that they saw American material aid will eventually lead to American blood being spilt

Let me get this straight. You're now objecting to American blood being spilled in WW2? I trust you're just getting carried away in the heat of a discussion. Don't worry, we all do it from time to time.

And he has swamp critter Yertle saying that giving away American monopoly bucks to Ukraine is America's # 1 priority . I wonder what is his cut . He already sold out to the Chinese so it doesn't surprise me that he thinks American money is better spent in Ukraine than dealing with the scores of domestic issues that needs to be addressed

Wow, you really are cynical today. Did you have your raw meat this morning?

[tomder55]

Why? Because the nation of which you are a citizen, has opted to support democracy...

When did my country right or wrong become a lefty mantra ?

Who's pretending? The guy's a hero in every freedom-loving country on the planet.


Wait until those "freedom loving nations have to choose between heating their homes and supporting the facade of Ukraine democracy At least Rishi Sunak in England is doing an audit of their support for Ukraine.

We keep on pouring resources there with no accountability . We are even going to be sending Patriot systems that Clueless said would not happen . Those systems require hundreds of trained operators . You think no US personnel won't be on the ground assisting in operation of the complex system ? This is Vietnam all over again . Advisors were followed by a fake provocation that justified US troops involvement .

So your answer is, do nothing?

at a minimum would I like to have an honest national debate . We don't even gety news about the war that is isn't filtered by the government . When was the last time there was a war where we don't even get reporting by imbedded journalist . You don't find it strange that all the news out of Ukraine supports Zelinski's and the official narrative ? No Ukraine abuses ;even from the Azov Ukrainians who are committing atrocities all over the Donbas ?


Mueller cited ten obstruction of justice crimes,

and the life long friend and collogue of Comeny found no proof of Russian collusion The Russian collusion narrative has been totally debunked .


On December 8, that was the war Roosevelt DID declare! Why n the world do you think that was a different war?

The facts are that Roosevelt began Lend Lease to help England and Russia their war against Germany .

December 7 1941 we were attacked by JAPAN

December 8 Roosevelt declared war against JAPAN

December 11 war against Germany and Italy was declared .

We were not attacked by them .

Roosevelt decided long before December 1941 that the US would enter the war against Germany . He began the prep for it with Lend Lease March 1941 effectively ending the US policy of neutrality . He waited for the right moment to declare the war . But the issues was decided long before the US declared war .

[jlisenbe]

The guy's a hero in every freedom-loving country on the planet.

He's especially popular in the countries who want to appear virtuous by supporting the United States using money it does not have to support Zelensky in a manner those "freedom-loving" countries have no intention of even coming close to matching.

[Athos]

Why? Because the nation of which you are a citizen, has opted to support democracy...

When did my country right or wrong become a lefty mantra ?

Who's pretending? The guy's a hero in every freedom-loving country on the planet.

red war against JAPAN

December 11 war against Germany and Italy was declared .

We were not attacked by them .


etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

cember 1941 that the US would enter the war against Germany . He began the prep for it with Lend Lease March 1941 effectively ending the US policy of neutrality . He waited for the right moment to declare the war . But the issues was decided long before the US declared war .

My post deleted - my error. Your original was loaded with those internet symbols so it was less than legible. It came out legible when I clicked reply. I'll try again.

(Later - still illegible when answering. Trying something else)

[tomder55]

Last month General Miley chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff warned that a long war in Ukraine was in neither side's interest . No one wins a long war there . He suggested that Ukraine was in a position of strength so now was the time to seize the initiative to begin negotiations to settle the war. He spoke of the tragedy of human suffering when the sides in WWI failed to negotiate a settlement when the war stalemated .

The war is less than a year old and already it has taken a heavy toll on Ukraine .More than 6 million Ukrainians are refugees .There is virtually no Ukraine economy left . The infrastructure destruction is going to lead to even more human tragedy this winter .

Yet Zelensky argues for complete victory that includes pushing Russia completely out of Ukraine . That is not achievably without continued draining of NATOs military capacity and probably direct NATO involvement. Such an escalation is unthinkable and risks world war.

Best scenario I see ,even with massive NATO weaponry ,is Ukraine pushing Russia back to status quo ante which would mean Russia still occupying areas in Eastern Ukraine that are culturally Russian . The Russians in that case would retrench and regroup and bide their time.

Despite setbacks ;Russia is performing as Russia always performs. It gets a bloody nose ;regroups and outlasts it's opponent (the exception being when Russia retreated in Afghanistan right before the end of the Soviet Union) . Eventually General Winter sides with them.

Sanctions designed to cripple their war making capacity have failed . The Russian economy has survived and may have fared better than the West's . Russia has found new markets for it's energy and new partners to supply their war machine .They acheived that before a partial mobilization will deliver fresh troops . There are no more fresh Ukraine troops .Their yourh are being bled without replacement .

A majority of Russians continue to support the Russian government and are not ready to accept defeat. They remember the lawlessness under Yeltsin. They remember that Putin restored order. They consider Crimea and the Russian port at Sevastopol as Russian territory worth fighting for. They do not believe the west's narrative that Russia is a terrorist state. There is no indication of dissent .The Russians have rallied around the flag. They believe that this war is about NATO threatening Russia.


In the West support for the war waivers as winter arrives .Across Europe there are strikes as the population begins to question why they need to make these sacrifices.

There is no military solution.There is only a political solution achieved though a negotiated settlement .The sooner it begins the better. WWI they waited too long; they punished Germany . That led to WWII .

The West needs to rethink the flawed Russian policies it adopted since the fall of the Soviet Union. Russia wanted to be included in the West under Gorbachev and Yeltsin .The West under the guidance of the New World Order rejected that and instead began the process of pushing NATO (who's objective was achieved after the fall of the Soviet Union and should've been dissolved ) to the borders of Russia . That was unacceptable to the Russians as it would've been for us had the circumstances been reversed .

A political solution would be a process of accepting Russia in the West while giving Ukraine credible security assurances .(Not like the Budapest Memorandum that exposed Ukraine to invasion ) . The idea that Russian will be defeated and neutralized is a non-starter . So Zelinsky will need to end his bravado .

Gorbachev’s vision of “a common European home” is the model that should be pursued and adopted . Moscow and Kiev must be persuaded to begin the process. Hoping for Putin's downfall is not a plan.

[Wondergirl]

Yet Zelensky argues for complete victory that includes pushing Russia completely out of Ukraine . ... Such an escalation is unthinkable and risks world war.

Will Putin stop once he has conquered Ukraine?

[Athos]

Last month General Miley chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff warned that a long war in Ukraine was in neither side's interest . No one wins a long war there . He suggested that Ukraine was in a position of strength so now was the time to seize the initiative to begin negotiations to se


etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

There is no military solution.There is on

The West needs to rethink the flawed Russian policies it adopted since the fall of the Soviet Union. Russia wanted to be included in the West under Gorbachev and Yeltsin .The West under the guidance of the New World Order rejected that and instead began the process of pushing Ndo .

Gorbachev’s vision of “a common European home” is the model that should be pursued and adopted . Moscow and Kiev must be persuaded to begin the process. Hoping for Putin's downfall is not a plan.

This reads like it's right out of the Kremlin Propaganda Bureau.

[tomder55]

and yet this is what General Milley recommended .

The general cited the multiyear death toll of 20 million during World War I — caused, he said, by the failure to negotiate an earlier end to the war — and went on to suggest that it would be better for the war in Ukraine to end soon in negotiation rather than continue on indefinitely.
“There has to be a mutual recognition that military victory is probably — in the true sense of the word — is maybe not achievable through military means, and therefore you have to turn to other means,”


War Industry Looks Forward to “Multiyear Authority” in Ukraine (theintercept.com)

Gen. Mark Milley: U.S. will continue to supply Ukraine with the equipment to defeat Russia (cnbc.com)


The West needs to rethink the flawed Russian policies it adopted since the fall of the Soviet Union. Russia wanted to be included in the West under Gorbachev and Yeltsin .


This reads like it's right out of the Kremlin Propaganda Bureau.

No ;It is exactly the debate that should've happened after the fall of the Soviet Union instead of declaring victory ;the end of history ,and rubbing Russia's nose in it .
Ex-Nato head says Putin wanted to join alliance early on in his rule | Nato | The Guardian


Opinion | A Fateful Error - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Opinion | A Fateful Error - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

The above op-ed was by George Kennan . Who is he ? He was the author of America's Cold War policy of containment .

He wrote expanding NATO would be the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-Cold War era. Such a decision may be expected to inflame the nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion; to have an adverse effect on the development of Russian democracy; to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to East-West relations, and to impel Russian foreign policy in directions decidedly not to our liking … ”

[tomder55]

A Patriot battery costs $1 billion each missle costs $4 million They are being sent to Ukraine to target $20,000 Iranian kamikaze drones that have the capability to swarm to their target ...often air defense systems .They need a staff of 90 people to operate them with a half year to a year to effectively train a crew . The one system we are sending won't make a lick of difference in this war .

[jlisenbe]

I wonder how many of the people who support this support of Ukraine would still be in the game if they had to pony up several hundred dollars in additional taxes in order to pay for it. It's amazing what pols can do when money is no consideration.

[Wondergirl]

What blows my mind is the cleanup that will have to be done and then rebuilding.

[jlisenbe]

What blows my mind is the cleanup that will have to be done and then rebuilding.

We agree on that. It will likely be something along the lines of the rebuilding of Germany after the War. And I have a funny feeling of who they think will pay for it.

[Wondergirl]

And I have a funny feeling of who they think will pay for it.

A tremendous, heartfelt, humane opportunity for Donald Trump, Elon Musk, et al.

[jlisenbe]

And you and the Clintons!

[Wondergirl]

And you and the Clintons!

Yes!!!