[Wondergirl]

Fearful????

Like tomder says, stick to the topic of the thread.

[jlisenbe]

Of course you're fearful. It's as I've said many times, when you feel a little pressured, you just avoid the question. You view it as dangerous to your position, as well you should. Of course you can always prove me wrong.

"You say you've read it (the John 3 passage), but you have not accepted and loved and believed it. Do that first, and then we can talk more."

Or you can choose to reject it, but you need to make up your mind before we can continue.

I suspect you unknowingly helped the cause of truth by bring up the three creeds, all of which support a coming day of judgment.

[dwashbur]

from Me (Athos)
Here's your answer: Of course, they do. Anyone who leads a good life as described by WG goes to heaven. It doesn't matter what they believe. It only matters how they behave, and that the behavior is informed by a good conscience.


drom DW
That's where we differ.

Kindly please explain the difference. I don't want to assume something that isn't true.

I accept Jesus' statements that he's the only way, and belief - a terrible word for it in today's American English, "trust" would be much better - in him is crucial to reconciliation with God.

Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
That is bad exegesis. Both letters were written to believers, those who have already received Jesus and are part of His church. 1 Peter was written to a collection of churches, 1 John was written to the church of Ephesus to correct some gnostic heresies. The "us" is believers. The church. If you rip those verses out of those contexts, you do violence to the text.
You definitely misunderstood my two different uses of "us".

No, I understood. But it's still poor exegesis. Again, both letters are addressed to believers, not to the wider world. Believers are to show their trust in Jesus by their actions, and if the actions aren't there, something is very wrong. Neither has any application to non-believers.

[Wondergirl]

Of course you're fearful. It's as I've said many times, when you feel a little pressured, you just avoid the question. You view it as dangerous to your position, as well you should. Of course you can always prove me wrong.

The last thing I am is "fearful". I've read your nastiness and guile and deception when responding to me and others on this site. No matter what response I give you, it's wrong, according to you, because it's coming from me. No, thanks!

I suspect you unknowingly helped the cause of truth by bring up the three creeds, all of which support a coming day of judgment.

My point was I had memorized two of them before I could read. They're a sequel to baptism.

[dwashbur]

Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
You mean of the creeds you don't believe?
Only God can judge, according to those creeds.

We read two different creeds, then. They give the BASIS on which God will judge, which I believe is what JL wants to talk about. Someone's dodging.

[jlisenbe]

We read two different creeds, then. They give the BASIS on which God will judge, which I believe is what JL wants to talk about. Someone's dodging.

Good posts, DW. I really don't WANT to talk about judging. I'd much rather talk about Jesus, but the idea that there is no judgment and everyone, regardless of belief, will be saved is simply not based on the Bible.

Your comment on "trust" vs. "belief" was a good one.

I've read your nastiness and guile and deception when responding to me and others on this site.

You are most welcome to correct me for, "nastiness and guile and deception" at any time you see it, but just a general post like that is actually just nastiness itself. You are doing what you accuse me of doing. I do wish you would engage and answer questions, but I know you well enough by now that I don't expect it to happen. Too bad. Surprise me!!

[Wondergirl]

Good posts, DW. I really don't WANT to talk about judging.

That's ALL you've been talking about!

I'd much rather talk about Jesus, but the idea that there is no judgment and everyone, regardless of belief, will be saved is simply not based on the Bible.

Jesus = love. And no one has said everyone will be saved.

You are most welcome to correct me for, "nastiness and guile and deception" at any time you see it, but just a general post like that is actually just nastiness itself. You are doing what you accuse me of doing.

See!!! There ya go again! Antiphrasis!!!

I do wish you would engage and answer questions, but I know you well enough by now that I don't expect it to happen. Too bad. Surprise me!!

Ask me a reasonable question without a gotcha hidden in it.

[jlisenbe]

Ask me a reasonable question without a gotcha hidden in it.

Have done so many times. You see a "gotcha" behind every bush. I don't see questions as "gotcha". I believe that if I cannot defend my position by answering penetrating questions, then I need to change my position. That's why I answer your questions. It's also why, I think, you don't answer mine. DW sees this in you as well. "Someone's dodging."

See!!! There ya go again!

That one made me laugh. Being nasty is OK for you but not for anyone else. My, my, my.

[Wondergirl]

Have done so many times. You see a "gotcha" behind every bush. I don't see questions as "gotcha". I believe that if I cannot defend my position by answering penetrating questions, then I need to change my position. That's why I answer you questions. It's also why, I think, you don't answer mine.

No matter what answer I give, according to you, it's wrong.

That one made me laugh. Being nasty is OK for you but not for anyone else. My, my, my.

I added Antiphrasis to my answer. You must have been typing and missed it.

[Athos]

I accept Jesus' statements that he's the only way, and belief - a terrible word for it in today's American English, "trust" would be much better - in him is crucial to reconciliation with God.

Thank you for replying.

A follow-up question: How then do you explain the millions who lived before Jesus and never heard of him? And the billions who lived since Jesus and never heard of him? Does Jesus' statement that he's the only way, and is crucial to reconciliation with God apply to those groups? Do they go to hell?

I'm sure you've heard this before and I anticipate your answer.

Another thought is: If they go to hell for not accepting Jesus/God, why did Jesus/God create them in the first place, knowing they would spend eternity in terrible suffering? Being omniscient, Jesus/God must have foreseen that they would be sinners or non-believers, but he created them anyway.

[jlisenbe]

No matter what answer I give, according to you, it's wrong.

What do you expect when, for instance, you read clear statements in the three creeds you referred to plainly saying that Jesus will return in judgment, and you simply refuse to accept it because, I guess, it clashes with your preconceived ideas?

I added Antiphrasis to my answer.

I copied and pasted and so missed nothing, so it would certainly seem you added it AFTER reading my response. But even at that, it makes no difference. You made a nasty post and now you're trying to distance yourself from it. I would suggest you try and set a good example.

[jlisenbe]

The man who won't answer even the simplest question just posted at least five for someone else. Go figure.

[Wondergirl]

What do you expect when, for instance, you read clear statements in the three creeds you referred to plainly saying that Jesus will return in judgment, and you simply refuse to accept it because, I guess, it clashes with your preconceived ideas?

I haven't refused to accept that. You really want those non-white non-Christians to burn in hell, don't you!

I would suggest you try and set a good example.

You first.

[jlisenbe]

I haven't refused to accept that.

No. You just stay in your "safe space" of being noncommittal. But as I've said many times, show me to be wrong! State your belief about Jesus and Him coming to judge.

You really want those non-white non-Christians to burn in hell, don't you!

Thank goodness you don't make stupid, hateful statements.

[Wondergirl]

No. You just stay in your "safe space" of being noncommittal. But as I've said many times, show me to be wrong! State your belief about Jesus and Him coming to judge.

Judging doesn't mean condemning. Judging, like at the county fair, means assessing. It says nothing about reward or punishment.

Thank goodness you don't make stupid, hateful statements.

Wow! You can be so nice at times!

[jlisenbe]

Wow! You can be so nice at times!

Call someone a racist and you can expect a little blowback. You had it coming. It was a dumb, thoughtless statement for which there is not a scrap of evidence.

Judging at the county fair? Really? This is from the Athanasian Creed you made reference to and claim to believe. Sound like a county fair to you?

He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.

[Wondergirl]

He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.

Who wrote that? Using what agenda?

Thus, a schizophrenic man who murdered his wife and three children will go to hell? Especially if he's a Muslim?

[jlisenbe]

It was your reference that you now reject. Talk about weird. You are trying to make excuses for the very creed you brought up yourself. Why? Because, as always, it does not agree with your preconceived ideas.

[Wondergirl]

It was your reference that you now reject. Talk about weird. You are trying to make excuses for the very creed you brought up yourself. Why? Because, as always, it does not agree with your preconceived ideas.

You have absolutely no idea what I believe.

Read the next paragraph in my post before this one.

[jlisenbe]

You have absolutely no idea what I believe.

Of course I do. You have opened up enough to state a few things.

Your paragraph was a desperate effort to change the subject since you are doing so poorly here. I'm done with this lunacy. You appeal to three creeds, and when you find out that they all speak of a coming day of judgement, then you try to back off and change the subject. You can have the last comment. It won't help you. Any fair minded person reading this knows what you are doing.