[Wondergirl]

That's not true. When SP does disaster relief, they don't exclude gay individuals. I think you are guilty of hyperbole on a grand scale.

He said it's sin. Hellfire awaits them.

[jlisenbe]

That was not DW's accusation. However, he certainly seems to say what the Bible says about it. Now you can disagree with him if you'd like, but to say that he hates gays because he agrees with the Bible is really extreme. It's actually hatred itself.

[Athos]

That's not true. When SP does disaster relief, they don't exclude gay individuals. I think you are guilty of hyperbole on a grand scale.

That's NOT what DW wrote. Read it again re FG's comment on the LGBTQ community.

The abortion industry in America was founded by the ultimate racist, Margaret Sanger.

That's ridiculous. Abortion has been around for thousands of years!

Even worse, racism does not usually involve the loss of life, while abortion always does, and the loss of an innocent human life at that.

Good Lord. Racism is about losing the freedom to live. Actual loss of life is common in racism. Ever read a history book? When racism destroys a life, is that not an innocent life?

I couldn't help jumping in to confront your nonsense. The others can finish up as they see fit.

[jlisenbe]

What DW wrote. "He has told LGBTQ people that they don't have a right to exist. His charitable giving is to a very narrow range of recipients, only those he deems worthy and that won't upset his sexual apple cart. He has been very clear about that." You can draw your own conclusions. I've already answered WG's post.

Margaret Sanger was the founder of Planned Parenthood, the beginning of the mulit-hundreds of thousands of lives a year, billion-dollar abortion industry of today. She was a blatant racist. Do your homework.

Good Lord. Racism is about losing the freedom to live. Actual loss of life is common in racism. Ever read a history book? When racism destroys a life, is that not an innocent life?

My comment was, "racism does not usually involve the loss of life." It is an indisputably true statement. The comparison was racism (rarely results in loss of life) to abortion (always results in loss of life). Learn to be more careful with your reading.

It's interesting how you make an appeal to the importance of "innocent life" when it suits your purpose, and yet completely ignore it in the issue of abortion. Selective moral outrage, anyone?

Jump in any time you want.

[dwashbur]

Franky Graham is not anti-abortion. He is anti-woman. He wants women to be second-class citizens, to not hold jobs, to not speak for themselves, to be subservient to their husbands to the point of accepting abuse, and if a woman dies for lack of an abortion, well, that's a shame.
I don't think that's true. At any rate, you seem upset at the prospect of a mother dying, and yet have no concern for the death of her unborn child. That's puzzling to say the least.

I already addressed this. There is no proof that abortion destroys a full human. The Bible says God puts a soul in that body at the first breath, not before. So you are still assuming what you want to prove, and it's not working. You have not made your case.

And Margaret Sanger doesn't matter. Once again, you're trying to compare secular organizations with one that claims to represent Jesus. That's nothing but dodging, so please stop it and stay on the topic.

My comment was, "racism does not usually involve the loss of life." It is an indisputably true statement. The comparison was racism (rarely results in loss of life) to abortion (always results in loss of life). Learn to be more careful with your reading.

Indeed that was your comment. And neither part of it is correct.

What DW wrote. "He has told LGBTQ people that they don't have a right to exist. His charitable giving is to a very narrow range of recipients, only those he deems worthy and that won't upset his sexual apple cart. He has been very clear about that." You can draw your own conclusions. I've already answered WG's post.

No, you didn't. And what I wrote is accurate. He refuses to give to organizations that support LGBTQ youth, for example, only those with "traditional values" get any of his money. I don't care what you think the Bible says about being gay (you're wrong), withholding help because you don't like someone's lifestyle is not Christlike or biblical.

Franky is a fake. I don't believe he's even a Christian. We know what his earlier years were like and I don't think he ever got over it. I think he took over for the money. He has done nothing in his entire life to make me think differently.

[jlisenbe]

. The Bible says God puts a soul in that body at the first breath,

I'm a little surprised at your carelessness. The first body (Adam's) was not born. It was made from dust and had no life in it at all. That is radically different from a woman giving birth to a baby with a beating heart, functioning brain, and all body systems in place and working. The Bible in several places speaks of the preborn child as already known by God with plans in place. There is, for instance, Luke 1:41-44 where the unborn John is said to have "leaped with joy" when in the presence of the also unborn Jesus. And there are, as you well know, other examples of the same thing. There is Jer. 1:4 where God speaks of knowing Jeremiah prior to his development in his mother when, you say, he was not even human.

As to the unborn child being human, it's really remarkable that you try to deny it. The word "human" is a species word. Dogs carry dogs to delivery, cats carry cats, and humans carry humans. If the unborn child is not human, then what species do you think it is?

And neither part of it is correct.

Really? In what way?

He refuses to give to organizations that support LGBTQ youth, for example, only those with "traditional values" get any of his money. I don't care what you think the Bible says about being gay (you're wrong), withholding help because you don't like someone's lifestyle is not Christlike or biblical.

That is far removed from refusing to help people who are gay. When SP does disaster relief, they don't require some sort of confession of sexual purity for a person to qualify.

Might add that they also don't give money to groups that support racism or wife abuse. Why? Because, as with gay lifestyles, it is unbiblical.

Franky is a fake. I don't believe he's even a Christian. We know what his earlier years were like and I don't think he ever got over it. I think he took over for the money. He has done nothing in his entire life to make me think differently.

Hard to imagine a more hate-filled, judgmental observation. You "think" he took over for the money? To make accusations like that, you need a good deal more than what you "think". You are really treading on dangerous ground when speaking that way.

[Wondergirl]

Don't forget, JL. The Adam and Eve story is an allegory.

[jlisenbe]

This is an unborn child at 18 weeks, about halfway to birth. It's just stunning to me that you support a doctor dismembering and removing the various appendages in the process of abortion. Sorry for the size of the image. I wish this site would allow some control over that. Sure looks human, doesn't it?

Don't forget, JL. The Adam and Eve story is an allegory.

In which case you have destroyed your own argument about the breathing being necessary to be human. As an allegory, that breath, in reality, would never have taken place. Do bear in mind, however, that it can be allegorical and yet still be historically accurate. Perhaps that is what you were thinking of?

[Wondergirl]

In which case you have destroyed your own argument about the breathing being necessary to be human. As an allegory, that breath, in reality, would never have taken place.

In the Adam and Eve allegory, there's no mention of breath. You are confusing the allegory with the reality of human birth.

And during sn abortion, a doctor doesn't dismember and remove various appendages. When most abortions take place, the fetus is less than six inches long.

[jlisenbe]

In the Adam and Eve allegory, there's no mention of breath. You are confusing the allegory with the reality of human birth.

Huh??? It's surprising you would say that since you have quoted this text repeatedly in the past. It's the basis of your argument that the baby is not really a living human until it takes a breath.

7 Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living [f]being.

And during sn abortion, a doctor doesn't dismember and remove various appendages.

I have repeatedly had to correct you on that. Here, yet again, is the truth that I'm sure you will continue to ignore since it makes you uncomfortable. Your willful, intentional ignorance is really sad. "If the woman is less than 16 weeks along, the abortion doctor may be able to suction out the fetal parts like in a vacuum abortion. Once the fetus is older than 16 weeks, though, forceps are required. Forceps are grasping instruments used to grasp, crush, twist, and pull fetal body parts such as arms and legs or pieces of arms and leg out. The fetal head and spinal column often have to be crushed before they can be removed, especially the farther along the woman is. After the body parts are removed, the placenta is suctioned or scraped out, usually with the abortion doctor placing his hand on the woman’s stomach to help feel for it in the uterus." Abortion Methods: Dilation & Evacuation (D&E Abortion) – Springfield Right to Life (springfieldrtl.org) Another site. "The doctor uses a speculum to open the woman's vagina, making her cervix visible. A tube is inserted into her uterus, by which all amniotic fluid is suctioned out. Using forceps, the fetus is then dismembered and extracted in pieces. After the extraction, suction and curettage ensure that the uterus is completely emptied. An ultrasound is commonly used to confirm that the abortion is complete. D&E Abortion | profemina

[Wondergirl]

Huh??? It's surprising you would say that since you have quoted this text repeatedly in the past. It's the basis of your argument that the baby is not really a living human until it takes a breath.

The fetus, when born, does NOT breathe. Then what is it?

[jlisenbe]

Oh. So it IS a part of the Adam and Eve narrative? How about that?

If you want to continue this, then begin by admitting you were flat wrong about D&E abortions. If you can't do that, then I don't want to continue this with a person who doesn't care about the truth.

[Wondergirl]

I don't want to continue this with a person who doesn't care about the truth.

Talk with a few medical professionals about abortions.

[jlisenbe]

As usual, too proud to admit to being wrong. Sad. But for everyone else reading this, this statement by WG was laughably yet tragically incorrect. "And during an abortion, a doctor doesn't dismember and remove various appendages," and now she cannot bring herself to admit it. In my experience with dealing with the pro-abortion crowd, that is common. They scarcely ever know what they are talking about. If they did, they likely would not be pro-abortion.

Don't be too surprised to see that all too predictable, "Oh yeah! Well you are ignorant too!" reply.

And then this is left. "Talk with a few medical professionals about abortions." It's another tactic of the pro-abortion crowd. If they have no information to support their argument, then it's always a suggestion for the other guy to go out and look it up. It is a completely pathetic suggestion since the web, as I showed her, is full of information about D&E abortions, and on many sites supported by medical clinics.

[Wondergirl]

As usual, too proud to admit to being wrong. Sad. But for everyone else reading this, this statement by WG was laughably yet tragically incorrect. "And during an abortion, a doctor doesn't dismember and remove various appendages," and now she cannot bring herself to admit it.

Most abortions take place early on (as in a normal but very early delivery) before slicing and dicing are necessary to remove the fetus.

[jlisenbe]

before slicing and dicing are necessary to remove the fetus.

Wow. Talk about cold hearted. You're just fine with "slicing and dicing" an unborn child as in the image above. Stunning. I guess it's at least something that you now acknowledge such procedures do take place.

as in a normal but very early delivery

Abortions are absolutely nothing like an "early delivery". They are bloody, destructive ordeals.

[Wondergirl]

Wow. Talk about cold hearted. You're just fine with "slicing and dicing" an unborn child as in the image above. Stunning.

It rarely has to be done. Only as an emergency procedure.

Abortions are absolutely nothing like an "early delivery". They are bloody, destructive ordeals.

Please educate yourself. Was the live birth I underwent (after 12 hours of labor) "bloody"? Was the c-section I had four years later "bloody"?

[jlisenbe]

Only as an emergency procedure

Completely wrong. Please read the lit. The sad thing is that the info is available on the internet for anyone who, unlike you, has any real interest in the truth of this matter. Took all of two minutes to find this. I'll post it, but I know you won't bother to read it.

Abortion Methods: Dilation & Evacuation (D&E Abortion) – Springfield Right to Life (springfieldrtl.org)

Oh stop. You know full well what I meant. Your ridiculous comment about abortions being like "a normal but very early delivery," was the topic. It was a totally absurd comment. And the key word, which you managed to ignore, was "destructive".

[dwashbur]

Articles from obviously biased websites don't prove anything, and neither do pictures. There is no information at all in that photo, its total intent is to stir the emotions, not convey something that can be checked. It's a cop-out. And if there's no soul in it, it really doesn't matter what it looks like, now does it? That's the whole question and you're dodging it.

I'm a little surprised at your carelessness. The first body (Adam's) was not born. It was made from dust and had no life in it at all. That is radically different from a woman giving birth to a baby with a beating heart, functioning brain, and all body systems in place and working.

How is it different? A body is formed, God breathes a soul into it. This is another cop-out.
And by the way, Job 33:4 says the same thing. Job was born the usual way. So you're still wrong.

[dwashbur]

jlisenbe
He has told LGBTQ people that they don't have a right to exist. His charitable giving is to a very narrow range of recipients, only those he deems worthy and that won't upset his sexual apple cart. He has been very clear about that.
That's not true. When SP does disaster relief, they don't exclude gay individuals. I think you are guilty of hyperbole on a grand scale.

What does he tell the transgender teenager who lives on the street because her good Christian parents kicked her out? He tells her she's going to hell, and she won't get anything from him unless she conforms to his notions of sexuality.

Being anti-abortion is hardly the same thing as being anti-racism. We know racism is evil, but you have never been able to prove biblically or otherwise that abortion is. You assume it and manipulate the evidence to fit your assumption.
The abortion industry in America was founded by the ultimate racist, Margaret Sanger. Even worse, racism does not usually involve the loss of life, while abortion always does, and the loss of an innocent human life at that. It is not an assumption. It is an easily demonstrable fact.

Irrelevant. She wasn't claiming to represent God's truth. He is. And if you think racism doesn't usually involve loss of innocent life, you know nothing of American history or recent events. That is the most ridiculous statement I have seen all year.

Franky Graham is not anti-abortion. He is anti-woman. He wants women to be second-class citizens, to not hold jobs, to not speak for themselves, to be subservient to their husbands to the point of accepting abuse, and if a woman dies for lack of an abortion, well, that's a shame.
I don't think that's true. At any rate, you seem upset at the prospect of a mother dying, and yet have no concern for the death of her unborn child. That's puzzling to say the least.

More of your circular reasoning. You assume the fetus is human, when that's the whole question. I don't know what makes you think you get to get away with that stuff. It's manipulation and shading the truth. And I do have more concern for a living breathing woman than I have for a fetus. That's just common sense, and the Bible supports it. We've been over that many times, so I'm not going to repeat myself. The fact that you refuse to look at the biblical material honestly is your problem, not mine.

He gets zero respect from me, and his charity is a joke. Look into Samaritan Purse's finances. You'll be appalled if you look with an unjaundiced eye. Look into Franky's personal life. Ditto. He's not a good person.
I wish I had a dollar for every time on this site a person with no specifics asked me to look it up for them.

Another cop-out. I'm telling you to do your homework before you try to defend the indefensible. If you're too afraid of the truth to do that, once again, that's your problem.