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His post was as clear as mud and not at all what I asked for.
1) George asked his wife Susan to bake oatmeal raisin cookies. She baked them that afternoon and thereby submitted to George.
Like this:
3) Darlynn wants a baby. Matt says no. Darlynn submits to her husband's wishes and no longer asks. 4)Huey wants sex every Saturday morning at 9:30. Ingrid finds activities for their kids to do unsupervised during the time needed. Ingrid submits to her husband's wishes. 5)She's a Stepford wife, from the novel by Ira Levin -- a term used to describe a servile, compliant, submissive, spineless wife who happily does her husband's bidding and serves his every whim dutifully.
Is this what you were looking for (look above)?
You need focus. Jesus is our example.
JL (quote)You are a well-educated, accomplished woman, and yet you claim to need examples to understand what the widely known word "submit" means. It all gets old and tiresome. You believe the Bible unless, of course, it disagrees with you, and then you don't believe it unless asked when, again, you claim to believe it. And on and on it goes.
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Stop being obstinate.
The question on the table has to do with a wife submitting to her husband. How? Why? When?
The whole person is the soul, not just part of it. Man became a living soul when God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (Genesis 2:7), and when man dies his body goes back to the dust from whence it came (Ecclesiastes 12:7 & Job 34:15), and the spirit (ie., the breadth of life) goes back to God who gave it. He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him |
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 Originally Posted by InfoJunkie4Life
Here are some examples you asked for: Genesis 2. God directly breathes life into Adam but Eve is created from Adam's rib. Adam names Eve. All three are indicative of Adam's superiority. Genesis 3. God decrees that Adam shall rule over Eve. Genesis 4. God permits men to have more than one wife. Solomon had over 700. No woman is permitted more than a single husband. Genesis 19. To protect his visitors, Lot allows his two virgin daughters to be raped. Accepted behavior by Lot. Exodus 20:17. The wife is regarded as a piece of property of her father. At marriage, transfer of ownership goes to her husband. Leviticus. No women priests. Deuteronomy 22. A woman must be a virgin before marriage. Men don't have to be. Deuteronomy. A husband can divorce his wife. A woman cannot divorce her husband. 1 Corinthians. A husband is the head of his wife. Ephesians. Women should submit to their husbands in everything. 1 Peter. Women are the weaker vessel. Plus Paul's admonition previously noted. These clearly show that women are considered second class citizens alhough they can certainly be loved and cherished. |
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Previous posts will inform you. If not, read your Bible.
Second class citizens? 26For you are all childrenm of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes.n 28There is no longer Jew or Gentile,o slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true childrenp of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you. The 1 Peter passage, untruncated and non-paraphrased, reads thus. "Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered." Note the many women greeted in Romans 16. 1I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servanta of the church in Cenchrea. 2Welcome her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her with anything she may need from you. For she has been a great help to many people, including me.3Greet Priscab and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, 4who have risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them. 5Greet also the church that meets at their house.Greet my beloved Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia.c6Greet Mary, who has worked very hard for you.7Greet Andronicus and Junia,d my fellow countrymen and fellow prisoners. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.8Greet Ampliatus, my beloved in the Lord.9Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and my beloved Stachys.10Greet Apelles, who is approved in Christ.Greet those who belong to the household of Aristobulus.11Greet Herodion, my fellow countryman.Greet those from the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord.12Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, women who have worked hard in the Lord.Greet my beloved Persis, who has worked very hard in the Lord.13Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me as well.14Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas, and the brothers with them.15Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the saints with them. I think you don't understand complementarianism. It does not imply spiritual inferiority at all. |
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Wondergirl-
Submission does simply mean obey. Your example is valid with the F150. I had a similar situation with my wife just a few months ago. We got a HHR a few years ago. It wasn't really either of our choice vehicle. It just happened to be something we could afford, and we were in a pinch, so we got it. The HHR served us well. I decided (not we) to sell the thing, it has been accumulating issues faster than I can fix them. I've put some money in it making it run right and look good, I thought it was a good time to sell. Right now it is sitting on an auto lot for sale. I decided on a GMC Vandura. My wife would prefer something else. In reality, she is just happy to have something she can drive while I'm at work. She is willing to submit to my authority, and trust my judgement. My concern is for her. This is a reliable vehicle that is safe for her. But there were other considerations. I needed something bigger for my company. I needed something I could haul with occasionally. Since we got the van, she has been pleased, and I have been able to increase our income and decrease some of the stresses I have. She made this easy for me, because, she is submissive. Someday, I hope to get her the nice little new car she wants. This goes both ways. A wife should be submissive to her husband, while a husband should be submissive to God. God tells me to take care of my wife and consider her happiness and well being. I don't tell her how to run her life, she makes her own decisions, as a woman, as a free person. However, this household is my responsibility, and I take that seriously. I make sure there is always enough money that we don't get put out. I make sure that if she is doing something I think is wrong, that she knows. My job is not to control her or to dominate her, but to guide her and love her and be there for her. She respects this, and me, and tends to be submissive in that manner. I trust her judgement, and consider her always, but I'm the one who gets the final say. Usually she gets what she wants, because I get the final say, she would readily give up what she wants for what I want. If we had the money to get 3 cars, or I didn't need the larger vehicle, then I would have let her go car shopping, but that was not the case. For better or worse, I got the decision, and the consequences. I'm not always right either, and she's quick to point that out. This gives me respect for her and what she has to say. I do not discount her wisdom, she is often wiser than me, and I respect this about her. I often change my thinking about certain things because of her. I cherish her and care for her deeply. But without submission, this would be difficult. We can't share the same life and both dominate, when that happens, we are no longer sharing the same life, but rather sharing the same space and living our own lives. How is that for an example? |
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Yayyyy...Athos is back!
Originally Posted by Athos
Originally Posted by Athos
These are both great stories that emphasize sin. Not the shortcomings of the law. It is true that this was accepted behavior, it was the "decent" thing to do regarding their hospitality rules, but also true that it is not correct behavior by the law. The law clearly states that sexual immorality is punishable by death. In both cases, there was much death as a result of these actions. These are stories whereby we can see God's grace with dealing with the sinner, while still understanding His law regarding the sin. Lot was later raped by his own daughters and his legacy, Moab and Ammon, are constant thorns in the side of the Israelites. Isaiah 1 Tells us that sin begets destruction, and greater sin begets greater destruction. Sin breeds sin. I might also point out, that the Genesis story was prior to the law, it had not yet been given by God to Moses. The facts change slightly with the Levite. The rule of law has been established in the land of Israel by the time of the Judges 19 story. The wickedness of the city is much the same as that of Sodom and the facts surrounding the encounter with the mob is much the same. There were no angels there to protect the Levite, however, and mob was assuaged by the wife of the Levite. This resulted in her death. The circumstances leading up to this, are vastly different though. It was the father in law (probably) that sent out his daughter (the Levite's wife), she was unfaithful to the Levite, and that's how he ended up at her father's house. These are stories of how destruction befalls sinners, and how God's mercy can work through the sin of man. These are not exemplifications of sin and a righteous society. Originally Posted by Athos
Exodus 22:17? Here a man may lie with a woman and the father has the right to allow a marriage or disallow a marriage, given she is not betrothed to another. That was the penalty for the act, the man must marry the woman, and would never be able to seek a divorce, as this would give the wife more power over a weaker man. The consent of the woman is not considered, that is left to the family to decide. If she was raped, the father may deny the marriage, and the man fined for his actions, paying the father the dowry price. If it was consensual the father may allow the marriage, and still receive the dowry. This was the freedom granted to the cities and the families, to decide amongst themselves how to handle certain issues. There were also other laws restricting this, if the woman was kidnapped, then the kidnapper was to be put to death. It must also be understood, that women were usually betrothed at a very young age, and that the penalty for rape of a betrothed woman was death. She is still a human, with rights in the law. She is, however, under the authority of her father, and then after marriage, under the authority of her husband. Originally Posted by Athos
In 1 Corinthians 12 it is explained as analogy to the body. "But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it." This applies to anyone. The bible teaches us to have peace with our station in life, that to be rebellious is sin, that the law is to be followed, etc. Even in this, we are one in Christ, and equal before God. Originally Posted by Athos
Originally Posted by Athos
Originally Posted by Athos
I know no body likes to talk about this, but it is biology. |
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Inferior and superior are relative terms.
The structure of Mosaic laws is that all men and women are under the authority of the law. The law delegates certain responsibilities to men. The law delegates certain responsibilities to leaders. The law delegates certain responsibilities to religious practice. Men are under the authority of leaders. Women are under the authority of men, but because both are under the authority of the law, they are equally protected by the law. The law allows certain sins and punishes others. The law allowed the authority of a leader to impact the authority of other men. It was a rather beautiful system that gave room for the tribes to govern themselves, under the law, cities under the tribes, and men to govern their families under the laws of the cities (or the land of the tribes where there were no cites). It was your responsibility to govern properly, or you would face consequences. Corruption would happen, as in the Judges 19 story, and other tribes would war over this, and rightfully so. P.S. It is also true that Christians do not have live by these laws. The OT is a series of promises between God and Man regarding the governing of Israel. It is a book of histories of the chosen people of God. It is so much more than that, but not a rule book for Christians. |
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God permits men to have more than one wife.
Isaiah?s actions are not a standard for us to use in determining correct ethical or moral behavior.
In other words, you guys have absolutely NO idea what the word "submit" means in Bible terms.
How does a wife show with her deeds that she submits to her husband? Maybe the reverse of this might be told? So we might recognize that, in the selfsame way, for a husband to declare that Jesus is Lord demands that he serves his wife and by doing so makes it clear that he is serving Christ. In Ephesians 5, Paul addresses the wives in 40 words; he uses 115 in instructing the husbands. That might give us some hint of what’s involved here. Husbands are commanded to love their wives? Commanded to love! (this is not unique here), -you’ll remember that the older women are to help the younger women to train them how to love their husbands. So in other words, this notion of love is not the victim of human emotion; it is rather the servant of our human will —that the real issue for both the husband and the wife is whether we are going to bow our knee, bend our will, to what the Bible says or whether we are going to try and go on our own. |
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Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Of course we are equal, we are one flesh, we operate as a unit before the law and before others. My needs are her needs first. She really wanted something different though, and my will was submitted to. She obeyed me when I told her that this will not be a contentious thing between us. She now understands why we needed this over what she wanted and makes no qualms. |
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She obeyed me when I told her that this will not be a contentious thing between us.
The real issue for both the husband and the wife is whether we are going to bow our knee, bend our will, to what the Bible says, or whether we are going to try and go on our own. |
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She obeyed me when I told her
Then she recognizes the Voice of Authority. ;-) The real issue for both the husband and the wife... Ah, another cherrypicker!
And you will often satisfy her needs too, even if they conflict with yours.
Remember the fictitious story of the individuals who had all arrived in the realm of heaven, and Peter and some of the others were getting the men as organized as they could. And the fellow stepped forward and said, “Now, what I want you to do is, I want you to just get yourselves organized here. I’m going to put you in two groups. Over here on my left I’d like to have all the men whose wives, frankly, dominated them in their earthly pilgrimage, whose wives ruled the home. And then over on my right-hand side I’d like to have all the men who exercised leadership and jurisdiction in their earthly pilgrimage.” And there was just a huge shift over to the left-hand side, just droves and droves of men. And when they had finally assembled themselves, Peter looked, and there was just one man standing over here. And Peter said, “You’re probably quite lonely over there. How come you’re there?” And he said, “My wife told me to stand over here.” |
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