[waltero]

That has nothing to do with what I said. They lived long before the Bible was even thought of, or, if it had been written, had no knowledge of it.

We must first define what salvation means as it pertains to eternity.

The Word of God is clear: believers are those whom God chose for salvation from before the beginning.

They're going to an eternal, fiery hell?

This has nothing to do with the current topic of conversation.

[jlisenbe]

I agree. This passage has nothing to do with the current topic of conversation.

Other than it directly addresses your question of the "billions" who have not heard the Gospel?

Out of context? Fraid not.

I'll add this. If someone is "cherry-picking" scriptures, then the easy solution is to answer the solitary passage with other passages that provide both context and the correct view. You never do that.

[Athos]

"Liar, liar pants on fire!" Is this a second grade classroom?

I gear all my replies to you at a second grade level so you do not have trouble with comprehension.

[Wondergirl]

We must first define what salvation means as it pertains to eternity.

I have no idea what this means. Please explain.

The Word of God is clear: believers are those whom God chose for salvation from before the beginning.

So if I'm not on God's list, tough beans to me? I go to an eternity in a fiery hell? And the chosen ones have no choice? They can't say no?

[waltero]

I gear all my replies to you at a second grade level so you do not have trouble with comprehension.

Ah, Somebody advanced a grade.

[jlisenbe]

He is really advancing! I'm proud of him. Third grade here he comes.

[Athos]

Ah, Somebody advanced a grade.

Ok walter, for you I'll make an exception. I'll jump to 3rd grade.

The Word of God is clear: believers are those whom God chose for salvation from before the beginning.

So, no free will?

They're going to an eternal, fiery hell?




This has nothing to do with the current topic of conversation.

Of course, it does. You've got to stop running, Walter, evading questions. In the end, you can't hide.

[waltero]

Of course, Hell is always the main subject with the two of you.

[Wondergirl]

Of course, Hell is always the main subject with the two of you.

Do you believe in hell?

[waltero]

I've already answered that. Do you believe in Hell? If not, why are you always bringing it up?
DO you believe the Bible is the Word of God?

It is of no use talking to you, about a Book that you don't believe in. If you don't believe the Bible is God's Word then you are at fault.

Of course, it does. You've got to stop running, Walter, evading questions.

The two of you continually ask the same questions. Y

Ok walter, for you I'll make an exception. I'll jump to 3rd grade.

So, no free will?

I think it would be better for you, if you were to meet me in kindergarten.

I get that;
You don't want to believe in a God that would send people to Hell.
Making Hell your focal point. By doing that you are choosing Hell over Heaven? o!

[jlisenbe]

Do you believe in hell?

The question is, did Jesus believe in hell?

It is of no use talking to you, about a Book that you don't believe in.

Walter, you have hit the nail on the head. It is a source of never ending amazement to me why two people who plainly do not consider the Bible to be authoritative to have such concern about what the Bible does or doesn't say. If I believed the Bible was just some old, inaccurate, poorly preserved and translated book, I wouldn't care what it says. I have no idea why they want to endlessly argue the subject.

The Bible is God's word in my view. It is light and life. If a man who was raised from the dead preached and taught about hell, then that's good enough for me.

[Wondergirl]

If a man who was raised from the dead preached and taught about hell, then that's good enough for me.

That Man preached and taught about love.

[Athos]

The two of you continually ask the same questions.

As for me, I continually wait for your answer - been several weeks now. You keep evading an answer. The question is very straightforward - why no answer?

It's especially important now that you have declared that God chooses those he has declared for since before the beginning. What does God do with the rest of humanity - the billions not chosen?

No doubt you'll give a non-answer again. Such an easy question.

[jlisenbe]

That Man preached and taught about love.

And hell. You just choose to believe the former but not the latter. Who knows why.

[waltero]

God has created the overwhelming majority of humanity to not be worthy of salvation.

None is worthy.
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves

salvation depends on how a life is lived.

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8,9). You are saved by faith or you are not. It is a gift or it is by works. It cannot be both

Put your Trust in God. Do not rely on your own understanding. There is only one life, and it ain't yours.
Maybe the Prodigal son's older brother might fill you in. He was a good son, yet his younger brother was accepted.
The Older son (good he was) was a Pharisee.

[jlisenbe]

None is worthy.
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves.

Correct. God owes no man anything. If He only saved one person, it would be an act of immense mercy. No one will ever rightly point a finger at God and accuse Him of being unjust. We are all in the same boat as the thief on the cross. "‘Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." They both initially mocked Jesus, but then one repented and asked for mercy. "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Some on this board mock Him and discount His words, but a terrible day is coming when all mocking and unbelief will stop.

[waltero]

“We are punished justly, for we’re getting what our deeds deserve,” he says to his friend. “But this man has done nothing wrong.”

It’s remarkable, isn’t it, how somebody in the final stages of their Life should be processing information so well. I wonder, did he mean by this, “You know, this is what’s supposed to happen to you if you’re a rebel of the state. This is supposed to happen to you if you’re a terrorist.” Is that what he’s saying? You know, “This man hasn’t done anything; the Charges against him were trumped up. The charges against us were legitimate. Therefore, it is legitimate that we die; it’s illegitimate that he die.” I think it’s probably deeper than that. I think, if push came to shove, this individual, who was an opponent of the state, would still do it all over again. His sense of zealous rebellion against the Roman authorities was so strong, I think—and I can’t verify this, but I’m going to find him and look for him, finally, one day in heaven, and I’m going to ask him, “When you said to your friend on the Cross, ‘We are getting what we deserve,’ were you referring to the punishment of wrong, or were you referring to the punishment that your sins deserved?” I think that’s where he gets to: “This man has done nothing, and we deserve to die.”

That’s where people get off the bus in the conversation. People say to me all the time, “Well, do we have to go there, Walter? I mean, that’s what I dislike about Religion,” they tell me. “I don’t like that sort of religious idea of admitting your guilt and being deserving of a punishment. I don’t like that. I don’t like to think of God like that. That’s why I don’t like religion. That’s why I’m spiritual but not religious.”

that is actually not the response of religion.

The first criminal essentially makes a demand upon Jesus for what he thinks he deserves. The second criminal makes a request to Jesus for what he knows he doesn’t deserve. Now, let me say that to you again, because on this hinges the difference between believing Faith and religious hopefulness. The first individual makes a demand upon Jesus for what he believes he deserves. The second individual makes a request of Jesus for what he knows he doesn’t deserve.

[Wondergirl]

And hell. You just choose to believe the former but not the latter. Who knows why.

Hell (Gehenna - the Valley of Hinnom, a place near Jerusalem where children were sacrificed to Baal) was a horror that the people of Jesus' time understood. If Jesus were physically here with us today in 2021, what meaningful-to-us reference would he use to describe a modern place of pain and suffering?

[waltero]

what meaningful-to-us reference would he use to describe a modern place of pain and suffering?

Wouldn't you rather think of what Kingdom place Jesus has Promised you today? Not in a remote future in some far-off place, after you've been sleeping in the ground for five thousand years

[Athos]

It’s remarkable, isn’t it,

Boy, it sure is - remarkable. The way you absolutely, positively refuse to answer the simplest of questions.

As for me, I continually wait for your answer - been several weeks now. You keep evading an answer. The question is very straightforward - why no answer?

It's especially important now that you have declared that God chooses those he has declared for since before the beginning. What does God do with the rest of humanity - the billions not chosen?

No doubt you'll give a non-answer again. Such an easy question.