[jlisenbe]

Yep. Too late then. Might want to listen to the guy who’s been there.

[talaniman]

I'll just live my life the best I can thank you. I'm sure the old dudes way back when did the same.

[Athos]

If you have Faith it is a reality (fact).

In your own world, sure. In the world outside your mind, no. Words have meaning. You can change their meanings all you want, but that doesn't make the changes true.

Faith, It has to present itself as factual.

No, it has to present itself as BELIEVABLE. That's why it's called FAITH.

Faith applied...that is the best I can do with faith.

You can do a lot more if you apply faith. Even move mountains.

Knowing God I know the Evidence as real,

Than why haven't you produced any evidence?

I can not see or even contemplate there being lack of evidence.

That's pre-judging - a factor in closing your mind.

..so I will profess and tell you the Truth, there is evidence!

Fine. Again - then produce that evidence.

If I tell you there is no evidence I would be lying.

No, that's not lying. It's just being confused.

I meant it in the sense that People create their own hell.
Hell makes sense, heaven doesn't. hell is reasonable heaven is not.
The Popular conception of hell does not come from the bible to begin with.
Hell is an Awful reality.

See below re your articulation. Re-writing/re-thinking this would be helpful to understand your meaning.

Man creates his own hell...is that OK?

No, it's not OK - but it is true.

I have trouble articulating myself, I haven't had much Practice, Pardon.

I pardon you.

That's it for me. It's been nice chatting with you.

And you. Some day in the future, you will think about the things discussed here. They're not easily dismissed from your mind - even if you say they are.

[waltero]

If you have Faith it is a reality (fact). 
In your own world, sure. In the world outside your mind, no. 

You are 100% correct.  Jesus was not of this World. Did they not ask Jesus to provide proof? The proof/evidence was standing right smack in front of their face...and they sought proof; It was not proof they were seeking. If you want proof (in the world), become a scientist, or at least listen to them. Human DNA is a "code." Codes don't come from random events, it has to be created (not a made up word...Code = created) Many Scientists understand that the Universe Has order...indicating a creator...Now I digress.

In your own world, sure. In the world outside your mind

You just don't get it. I understand what you are getting at. Maybe you are Operating in the "World," outside your mind (of faith)? Yes, If I was to exit the realm of God and enter the "world"...the "world" in which most everybody operates, I would be in a world that doesn't exist (death) and most likely deny the Existence of God, even though there are facts all around me.
Have you ever wondered why the Disciples (along with everybody else) never understood what Jesus was talking about? We are Dealing with Real History and with Real Geography. Where not delving into the realm of fables, but where dealing with facts. When you turn to the Gospel Writers you will discover that they are not presenting us with Ideas to accept or even with a philosophy to embrace. But they are presenting us with Facts. With Events that took place in real time. "This is of Vital importance". And this distinguishes Christianity from many other Spheres of Philosophy and religions of the world. We are not saved believing a certain point of View. People might say; well that is just your point of view. Well that is our point of view, but we are not "saved" by believing a certain point of View. Our salvation is found in certain things that happened, that Christ was born, that Christ died for Sin, that Christ triumphed over the Grave That Christ ascended into Heaven, that Christ will return.

Words have meaning. You can change their meanings all you want, but that doesn't make the changes true.

That's true. That might be why The Word of God is True, and we "must" live by every Word! The World Dictates words that you can't say and makes up words that you "have" to say.

Some day in the future, you will think about the things discussed here. They're not easily dismissed from your mind - even if you say they are.

You are correct. It wasn't easy to dismiss from my (worldly) mind. Don't rely on your own understanding. The world doesn't know the Truth nor does it seek truth.

I have little experience in writing. Whenever I jump on this site I lose the entire day, sometimes two days. It takes me much too long to express myself.  I hope you have a smidgen of the idea I'm trying to get across. I will hold to what I said earlier; If I told you there was No evidence for the existence of God I would be a Liar, like you...No offence. Get the faith and run with it. BELIEVE!!!  Don't Fall into the subjection of the World

[Athos]

You are ...............(more of the same)............................... If I told you there was No evidence for the existence of God I would be a Liar, like you...No offence.

Walter - I'm not going to repeat all the times I have rebutted what you said so I'll make this short.

The issue is EVIDENCE-FOR-THE-EXISTENCE-OF-GOD. Nothing in your screed addresses this issue. It's deja vu all over again. You seem to lack the capacity to have a dialogue on point.

You may rant and ramble about your faith but no one asked you about your faith. You are very defensive in that area. I wonder why?

Note I have never called you a liar, yet you call me one. What part of your faith does that come from?

[Wondergirl]

I have little experience in writing. Whenever I jump on this site I lose the entire day, sometimes two days. It takes me much too long to express myself.

My strong suggestion to you is to keep your responses very simple. Don't keep reaching for multi-syllabic words and sophisticated-sounding ideas -- and end up confusing your readers. E.g., evidence for the existence of God -- #1, #2, #3 etc.

[tomder55]

Evidence of the existence of God .

Creatio ex nihilo (simple enough ?)
Yeah I know it is philosophical but evidence does not have to be scientific . When science can prove something comes from nothing then this evidence will be disproved . The universe had a beginning . The universe is the total of natural things . The beginning of the natural universe must have come from a supernatural presence.

Science tells us that the universe came from a big bang .That is irrelevant . No matter how many hypothesis they concoct ;it always comes back to a beginning... and that beginning has no scientific explanation . The only logical explanation is that there was a supernatural force at play . That supernatural force was God.

[Athos]

Evidence of the existence of God. The only logical explanation is that there was a supernatural force at play . That supernatural force was God.

Tom, if you're going to play the logic card, then be logical. To claim that not knowing the cause of the universe means the only logical explanation is a supernatural force at play is about as non-logical a conclusion as is possible.

Claiming that force is God is just as bad. You have confused your making a statement with logic. Logic requires a step-by-step progression from premise to conclusion to be logic. Your statement fails in that regard.

To repeat what I wrote to Walter many times, faith is not the same as evidence.

[paraclete]

I'll just live my life the best I can thank you. I'm sure the old dudes way back when did the same.

I just take the biblical perspective and live a quiet life

[jlisenbe]

Claiming that force is God is just as bad

That was not his statement. He referred to a SUPERNATURAL force which, by definition, would be God, or at the very least some force above the natural.

To claim that not knowing the cause of the universe means the only logical explanation is a supernatural force at play is about as non-logical a conclusion as is possible.

Not really. The point is that the only currently known possible explanation is God. Process of elimination. It should not be regarded as proof so much as presenting the only currently plausible cause.

[tomder55]

“To really make an apple pie from scratch, you must begin by inventing the universe.” (Carl Sagan)


One day a group of scientists got together and decided that humanity had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him. The scientist walked up to God and said, “God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We’re to the point where we can clone people, manipulate atoms, build molecules, fly through space, and do many other miraculous things. So why don’t you just go away and mind your own business from now on?”
God listened very patiently and kindly to the man. After the scientist was done talking, God said, “Very well. How about this? Before I go, let’s say we have a human-making contest.” To which the scientist replied, “Okay, we can handle that!”“But,” God added, “we’re going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam.”

The scientist nodded, “Sure, no problem” and bent down and picked up a handful of dirt. God wagged a finger at him and said, “Uh, uh, uh. Put that down. You go find your own dirt.”

[waltero]

The world can not see any evidence of GOD, Because it chooses to be blind.
The Evidence you are looking for is in the Body of Christ (Church).
And you ask why Christians are always acting like they can Prove the existence of God?



You want to be the one to prove the existence of God...where you gonna go???

[paraclete]

God is spirit, you cannot see spirits, doesn't mean they don't exist, blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe, SO................

[waltero]

I think Athos was taking a World view argument and trying to make sense of it. Why do Christians keep pretending that there is evidence when "we" (world) can clearly "see" that there is none to be found.

You want to be the one to prove the existence of God...where you gonna go???

[jlisenbe]

There is difference between evidence and proof. The fact that the universe is exquisitely fine tuned for life does not prove the existence of God, but is certainly compelling evidence.

[waltero]

The fact that the universe is exquisitely fine tuned for life does not prove the existence of God,

Yet for many, many scientist...not even looking for God...

We are talking about two separate planes. The Carnal knows only of this world. The Spirit knows of this world and the world to come. We are told not to think as the world thinks.
Need not wonder any longer why Christians are always trying to Prove the existence of God? Was this the Basis (Disparage the Christians) of your Argument?  If not, why would a Christian argue something contrary to his Belief/understanding? 
I can See a carnal being Pose such a question- because their position is non-belief. 
I apologize for Calling you A liar.  I only meant it in the same way Jesus was Speaking to the non-believing "world."
John 8:55 You do not know Him, but I know Him. If I said I ...

I do know what you are Talking about. I believe you are in error, taking on the role (even for a split sec.) of this world view.
Faith can play no part in this kind of representation.

Good Day.

[jlisenbe]

Need not wonder any longer why Christians are always trying to Prove the existence of God? Was this the Basis (Disparage the Christians) of your Argument? If not, why would a Christian argue something contrary to his Belief/understanding?

It's typically a bad idea to cut off a quote in mid-sentence. You left off, "...but is certainly compelling evidence." So by no means was I disparaging the Christian faith. I am wholeheartedly a follower of Christ. My point was to illustrate the difference between evidence and proof. Some people disparage evidence because it does not meet their standard of "proof". I think that's a mistake.

I do know what you are Talking about. I believe you are in error, taking on the role (even for a split sec.) of this world view.

I took on the exact opposite of this world view. My point was essentially the same argument used by Paul in Romans 1. "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." It is the first of Paul's two arguments for God. The second, in chapter 2, is the fact that there is an innate sense of right/wrong placed by God in every person. Paul referred to it as "conscience".

I think you misread my statement.

[Wondergirl]

There is difference between evidence and proof.

Evidence of pregnancy: I get sick to my stomach when thinking of making supper, I'm tired all the time, and I'm a lot crabbier.
Proof of pregnancy: an ultrasound.

[Athos]

One day a group of scientists got together and decided that humanity had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him. The scientist walked up to God and said, “God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We’re to the point where we can clone people, manipulate atoms, build molecules, fly through space, and do many other miraculous things. So why don’t you just go away and mind your own business from now on?”
God listened very patiently and kindly to the man. After the scientist was done talking, God said, “Very well. How about this? Before I go, let’s say we have a human-making contest.” To which the scientist replied, “Okay, we can handle that!”“But,” God added, “we’re going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam.”

The scientist nodded, “Sure, no problem” and bent down and picked up a handful of dirt. God wagged a finger at him and said, “Uh, uh, uh. Put that down. You go find your own dirt.”

Tom, I'm replying to this one because I got such a kick out of your attempt. It gave me a chuckle. Nice to know you're reaching out with stories. Very Biblical.

Add to that your fellow defenders chiming in with Walter's typical incomprehensibility (he didn't take WG's advice), and mistaking Jl for someone else with more of his now familiar rambling, and the argy bargy of Mr. Down Under - well, it's fun to see all you guys bumping into each other.

[waltero]

The fact that the universe is exquisitely fine tuned for life does not prove the existence of God,

Yet for many, many scientists...not even looking for God...


I responded too fast (sorry).
Thinking it was all too obvious what I was saying.
I was referring to those people (Scientists) Who turn to God on the Facts that they find...While not even believing or Searching for God.

@ Athos;
The argument that your using is a reductio ad absurdum, In other words, taking something that is true and reducing it to a level that is absolutely absurd, whereby you then use it as a mechanism to refute the reality of the premise. That’s what your doing. What your saying is, “To believe in the evidence just ridiculous.”
”

@Athos, No worries brother. I know that you will come to believe in the truth sooner or later.
You asked a Question; "Why do Christians think they can Prove the existence of God" (all the Tyyyme). How can Christian's Prove there is a God...Look at their Fruit. Hopefully, someday you will reach the end of Self.


You being a "Christian"- your argument makes no sense. Only a person who belongs to the world would ask such a question with such Confidence. Believing there is no Proof, thereby Not believing. "Believe" in the Spirit. Don't believe as the world believes.

It appears you have no Idea of what I am talking about, And that's Okay. It is God who calls those who he Chooses.
God Bless Brother.