[jlisenbe]

He said treat each other with love. How is that dishonest?

It was completely dishonest since loving each other was not the topic. The topic was your suggestion that Eve's sin opened to the door to sexual sin and abnormalities becoming moral and normal.

And the chromosome information you presented was likewise thoroughly dishonest. Everyone knows of chromosomal abnormalities, and that is nothing new. You, however, asserted that trans people had "broken chromosomes", and have presented zilch to back up that idea. Even worse, you presented material on chromosomes in the hope, I suppose, that it would make it appear that you found some support. You didn't.

I'm all for treating trans people with love and kindness. I am absolutely not for lying about what causes their problem.

[Wondergirl]

And where in the Bible do you find any support whatsoever for your idea?

Genesis 3. The LGBTQIA community has been in existence for millennia. Adam and Eve, using their free will, opened up their Creator's binary plan.

It was completely dishonest since loving each other was not the topic. The topic was your suggestion that Eve's sin opened to the door to sexual sin and abnormalities becoming moral and normal.

And you think what?

And the chromosome information you presented was likewise thoroughly dishonest. Everyone knows of chromosomal abnormalities, and that is nothing new. You, however, asserted that trans people had "broken chromosomes", and have presented zilch to back up that idea. Even worse, you presented material on chromosomes in the hope, I suppose, that it would make it appear that you found some support. You didn't.

You don't read what I post, do you.

I'm all for treating trans people with love and kindness. I am absolutely not for lying about what causes their problem.

And sooooo, you think what causes their problem?

[jlisenbe]

Genesis 3. The LGBTQIA community has been in existence for millennia. Adam and Eve, using their free will, opened up their Creator's binary plan.

At some point you have to stop grasping at straws. Nothing at all in that passage supports your idea.

And you think what?

I think your idea has not one shred of support, either in the Bible or in science. You certainly have not been able to present any.

And sooooo, you think what causes their problem?

It falls in the same category as a man who thinks he is a dog, cat, Jesus, God, the devil, or whatever.

[Wondergirl]

At some point you have to stop grasping at straws. Nothing at all in that passage supports your idea.

Did Adam shave every morning? Did he and Eve bathe? Did they need a bathroom? Did what are now carnivores eat fruit and plants? Were there mosquitoes and rattlesnakes? Did Adam and Eve visit what is now Australia?

[jlisenbe]

And your point is?

Actually, I get your point. Pedophilia, necrophilia, kleptomania, hypersexuality, bestiality, and many other disorders are, in your view, just fine, as is a man who thinks he is a woman.

[Wondergirl]

Actually, I get your point. Pedophilia, necrophilia, kleptomania, hypersexuality, bestiality, and many other disorders are, in your view, just fine, as is a man who thinks he is a woman.

So a man cannot possibly have his gender "messed up" (your take on it) by estrogen baths when he was in utero? The unlimited possibilities because of Genesis 3 don't affect humans and gender?

The trans community wants to fix what went wrong.

[jlisenbe]

So a man cannot possibly have his gender "messed up" (your take on it) by estrogen baths when he was in utero?

Back to the little green men again. You just have speculation completely unsupported by any evidence.

The unlimited possibilities because of Genesis 3 don't affect humans and gender?

You need to learn that you saying it does not make it true. You are just putting out speculation as truth, and that is terrible. According to your idea, pedophilia, necrophilia, kleptomania, hypersexuality, bestiality, and many other disorders are just fine, as is a man who thinks he is a woman. After all, it's all of those "unlimited possibilities".

[talaniman]

Back to the little green men again. You just have speculation completely unsupported by any evidence.

You need to learn that you saying it does not make it true. You are just putting out speculation as truth, and that is terrible. According to your idea, pedophilia, necrophilia, kleptomania, hypersexuality, bestiality, and many other disorders are just fine, as is a man who thinks he is a woman. After all, it's all of those "unlimited possibilities".

No wonder you're confused. You can't lump a bunch of stuff into one big group that aren't even remotely related nor have anything to do with transgender issues.

[jlisenbe]

WG, believe anything you want about broken chromosomes or Genesis 3. You have that privilege and I'm not trying to belittle your beliefs. But if you are asked to support them, then that's where we are running afoul of each other. If you want to believe that Gen. 3 opened some mystical door of endless gender possibilities, then go for it, but at least be honest enough to admit that there is no support for that in the Bible. Saying that Jesus told us to love everyone does not support the idea of many, many gender arrangements, and it comes far short of showing that Jesus would approve of that. His testimony was that God created man and woman and put them together in marriage. Beyond that, He made no comments on gender that I can recall.

Similarly, science offers no support of a chromosomal cause for trans people. Now that the human genome has been mapped, it is a fairly straight forward undertaking to compare genomes one person to another. No genetic basis has been discovered for same sex attraction, and I feel pretty safe in saying the same is true for the trans situation.

[Wondergirl]

His testimony was that God created man and woman and put them together in marriage. Beyond that, He made no comments on gender that I can recall.[No, because Eve totally messed up God's plan for only binary relationships.

Similarly, science offers no support of a chromosomal cause for trans people.

Yes, it does. More later after I get specific information from my Oklahoma trans woman friend.

[jlisenbe]

“Eve totally messed up Gods plan for binary relationships.” Actually it never says that, but at least you now agree that God’s plan was for a man and a woman, and anything outside of that is outside of God’s will and plan. Progress!

If you go talk to a pedophile, you will get a pedophile friendly answer. What do you think you will get from talking to a trans person? Do you really think that person will say, "I have a mental illness that is causing this?"

[Wondergirl]

“Eve totally messed up Gods plan for binary relationships.” Actually it never says that, but at least you now agree that God’s plan was for a man and a woman, and anything outside of that is outside of God’s will and plan. Progress!

I done said that awreddy! "Genesis 3. The LGBTQIA community has been in existence for millennia. Adam and Eve, using their free will, opened up their Creator's binary plan."

From https://www.christiancentury.org/art...eauty-creation

"Just as we call God the Alpha and the Omega, implying all things from first to last and in between, the author of Genesis 1 is using a poetic device to corral the infinite diversity of creation into categories we can easily understand. For as long as there have been humans, there have been people who fall outside of the male/female binary.

A creation story from Sumer, a Meso­po­tamian society and neighbor to what would become Israel, has references from 1600 BCE to humans who are created with sex organs that are not immediately identifiable as female or male.

The Mishnah and the Talmud, the Jewish compilations of law put together between 200 CE and 500 CE, include examples of individuals who don’t fit male or female categories, including those whose sex is indeterminable, those who have characteristics of more than one sex, and those whose characteristics change over time. This tells us that even the descendants of the people who recorded Genesis 1 did not necessarily assume that the gender or sex categories seen in verse 27 were all-encompassing.

In Greek and Roman times, people born with indeterminate or ambiguous sex characteristics were called hermaphrodites, after a Greek god who exhibited both male and female traits.

Today people with a combination of different sex characteristics identify themselves as intersex, and they make up between .018 percent and 1.7 percent of the world’s population. Throughout history, doctors have attempted to 'fix' intersex infants through surgical intervention before a child can make any decisions, and sometimes even without the knowledge or consent of the parents."

If you go talk to a pedophile, you will get a pedophile friendly answer. What do you think you will get from talking to a trans person? Do you really think that person will say, "I have a mental illness that is causing this?"

No, that has never been the answer from any of my trans, bi, gay, and enby friends.

When I ask you or try to discuss something with you, why do I get a downputting, even nasty, response? Is it because you're a conservative Southern white male?

[jlisenbe]

I done said that awreddy! "Genesis 3. The LGBTQIA community has been in existence for millennia. Adam and Eve, using their free will, opened up their Creator's binary plan."

Then we agree that God's will is for men and women. Like I said "awreddy". Progress!

The Mishnah and the Talmud, the Jewish compilations of law put together between 200 CE and 500 CE, include examples of individuals who don’t fit male or female categories

1. I doubt that is true. 2. Even if it is, there are many examples in the Bible of people who don't follow God's will. That does not mean their behavior is approved.

The rest of your passage was just stats. Still waiting to see how those "broken chromosomes" work. Better yet, just a statement that you were guessing.

When I ask you or try to discuss something with you, why do I get a downputting, even nasty, response? Is it because you're a conservative Southern white male?

Wow. Gender bias, regional bias, and political bias, and all in one sentence. And you want to accuse people of "downputting"??? I question your thinking and your rationale. You insult my gender, region, and political philosophy. Who really do you think is guilty???

[Wondergirl]

Then we agree that God's will is for men and women. Like I said "awreddy". Progress!

Yes, that was God's will. Then Eve ate that legendary apple.

1. I doubt that is true. 2. Even if it is, there are many examples in the Bible of people who don't follow God's will. That does not mean their behavior is approved.

It has nothing to do with following God's will!* Your lack of reading comprehension again...plus unwillingness to look beyond your literal nose.

The rest of your passage was just stats. Still waiting to see how those "broken chromosomes" work. Better yet, just a statement that you were guessing.

My trans woman friend will be reexplaining that to me this evening. Stay tuned.

Wow. Gender bias, regional bias, and political bias, and all in one sentence. And you want to accuse people of "downputting"???

And what have you done to earn my complaint?

*Let's say at birth you were born with external male sex organs plus a vagina. What would your parents have done about that?

[jlisenbe]

It has nothing to do with following God's will!* Your lack of reading comprehension again...plus unwillingness to look beyond your literal nose.

Everything has to do with following God's will.

And what have you done to earn my complaint?

So your behavior is someone else's fault? Interesting. As to "what I have done", I have questioned your thinking, rationale, and responses. That's how discussions go. If you don't like that, then I'll be glad to just drop it.

*Let's say at birth you were born with external male sex organs plus a vagina. What would your parents have done about that?

Completely separate issue. That is not what trans-gender people are.

[Wondergirl]

Everything has to do with following God's will.

If you're born with a faulty body, was that God's will? If your parents, medical professionals, and/or you make corrections, is that against God's will?

So your behavior is someone else's fault? Interesting.

People react to what each of us says or does.

Completely separate issue. That is not what trans-gender people are.

Ah! What ARE they?

[jlisenbe]

If you're born with a faulty body, was that God's will? If your parents, medical professionals, and/or you make corrections, is that against God's will?

You have yet to show that trans people have a "faulty body".

People react to what each of us says or does.

You are responsible for your own behavior.

Ah! What ARE they?

Hermaphrodites. You stated that above. Sometimes referred to as intersex.

[talaniman]

WG, my friend, why are you aiding, abetting and enabling a TROLL?

[Wondergirl]

WG, my friend, why are you aiding, abetting and enabling a TROLL?

I know, I know. I just PMed Curlyben about that thread.

[jlisenbe]

I know, I know. I just PMed Curlyben about that thread.

Oh for goodness sake. If it bothers you so much to have an honest discussion, then talk to someone else. You are not required to exchange with me. After all, you know how those white, southern, conservative men are. Tell me why that should not have been considered to be a race-based, gender biased statement? Should it be reported?