[paraclete]

you can only trade on WWII and the Pacific war for so long, fact is, we were a convenient base for you operations after the japs kicked you out of the Philippines. You have gladly pulled your industries out of here when it has suited you and given so much to our former enemies, I sometimes wonder whether being an ally is worth it

[talaniman]

If the grass looks greener on the other side go for it. China welcomes you with open arms.

[jlisenbe]

I sometimes wonder whether being an ally is worth it

You already know my feeling. If it was up to me, we would tell Australia and every other "ally" of ours to either pony up with defense spending or find another ally. And that's especially true if everyone in Australia is like you, meaning a person who can scarcely go a day without mocking and denigrating our country.

[tomder55]

clete you remind me of the townspeople in the movie 'Shane ' . You welcome the gunslinger into town when you are threatened by bullies . You even rally behind him . But you are never really comfortable with the gunslinger being in your town because he reminds you o lack of fortitude. The gunslinger is never really accepted .... only tolerated . You see no difference between the gunslinger who is pulling your bacon out of the fire with the threat he is in town to eradicate . So when the threat is gone ,the gunslinger becomes the threat .....untlil you need him again.

You know that the Japanese needed to take on Australia to secure their flank . We were not using Australia as a "convenient base of operations " . The truth is that after their attack on Pearl Harbor ,they wasted little time in attacking Australia at Darwin and Broome . More than 80 attacks on Australia occurred before the US eliminated their air and naval threat . The US did that in May 1943 .Even though our fleet was weakened ,we took on the Japanese fleet at Coral Sea..... off of Australia's main land . It was technically a loss for the US. But after that ,mainland Australia was not seriously threatened again.

[Athos]

'Shane '

Shane - greatest movie western ever. Lonesome Dove - greatest TV western ever. Also greatest ever TV mini-series, with possible exception of Victory At Sea. Speaking of the USN, Coral Sea fight was as you say.

[tomder55]

I find myself watching the westerns more often as opposed to the things Hollywood tries to pass off as entertainment these days. I have not seen Lonesome Dove. I'll add it to my list . I recently got Amazon Prime so I am watching the Jack Ryan series.
I got to see the cabin that Shane was filmed in when I spent a week hiking in the Grand Tetons .

As for the Aussies . I am very appreciative of their continuing alliance and friendship with the US . I don't believe that Clete's attitude about the US represents the feelings of most Aussies .

[jlisenbe]

I am very appreciative of their continuing alliance and friendship with the US . I don't believe that Clete's attitude about the US represents the feelings of most Aussies .

Pretty good statement.

As good as Shane was, I think High Noon is the best western movie ever, followed closely by Conagher.

[tomder55]

Love the black hatted villain portrayed by a very young Jack Palance in Shane . I chose Shane mostly because of the quintessential theme I described . I was also thinking of some of the Clint Eastwood westerns like ' High Plains Drifter' .But I did not because he in turn despises the towns folk .

High Noon is a good choice too. The hero in that tried to get the townfolk to participate in their defense . But he is met with cowardly reluctance and hostile resentment . He faces the villains alone . Only after the fight do the townsfolk embrace him . He tossed his badge down and leaves .

[jlisenbe]

Coral Sea was 42 not 43, but otherwise your observation was correct and it certainly did much to prevent the Japanese from moving aggressively against the Aussies. It was a major step forward for us coming on the heels of the PH attack.

In High Noon, his newlywed wife's decision to support him towards the end at the risk of her life was really nice.

[paraclete]

clete you remind me of the townspeople in the movie 'Shane ' . You welcome the gunslinger into town when you are threatened by bullies . You even rally behind him . But you are never really comfortable with the gunslinger being in your town because he reminds you o lack of fortitude. The gunslinger is never really accepted .... only tolerated . You see no difference between the gunslinger who is pulling your bacon out of the fire with the threat he is in town to eradicate . So when the threat is gone ,the gunslinger becomes the threat .....untlil you need him again.

You know that the Japanese needed to take on Australia to secure their flank . We were not using Australia as a "convenient base of operations " . The truth is that after their attack on Pearl Harbor ,they wasted little time in attacking Australia at Darwin and Broome . More than 80 attacks on Australia occurred before the US eliminated their air and naval threat . The US did that in May 1943 .Even though our fleet was weakened ,we took on the Japanese fleet at Coral Sea..... off of Australia's main land . It was technically a loss for the US. But after that, mainland Australia was not seriously threatened again.

Tom the Coral Sea battle was a long way from Australia and prevented an attack on Port Moresby in what is now Papua-New Guinea. The Japanese never intended to invade Australia but they obviously wanted to neutralise our northern defences and bases and secure Papua-New Guinea where they had a small land force. The Coral Sea was at best a draw with capital ships of both fleets sunk or damaged. What it did prove is the effectiveness of carrier based warfare and the battle switched to the islands

[jlisenbe]

Capturing Port Moresby would have put Japanese air assets within 250 miles of Australia with nothing between the two adversaries but blue water defended by only a relatively weak Aussie navy. The battle, while a tactical victory for Japan, was an enormous strategic victory for the Allies as it prevented the Japanese from establishing southern bases which would have been an advantage for them. Perhaps more importantly, it robbed Japan of two fleet carriers they needed for the Midway battle while the U.S. was able to get Yorktown back in time.

[paraclete]

Yes it turned out to be a prelude to more important battle but you know Yamamoto made a tactical mistake at Midway, he assumed that because he lost his carriers he had lost the battle but in fact he still had vastly superior forces and had he pressed on he could have destroyed the carriers and taken Midway and probably the whole of the Hawaiian group.

It typifies the Japanese thinking in WWII, get a bloody nose and run, it certainly was the British thinking in the east

The Japanese already had Timor, much closer but except for Darwin and Broome there were no targets in range of their aircraft so taking Moresby would have been a tactical victory but not a prelude to invasion as there were hundreds of miles of useless country before them

[jlisenbe]

You don’t press on with no carriers unless you want to lose your entire force.

[paraclete]

against what? a depleted force with no strike power left? of course he was blind and had no way of knowing this, but he knew he had destroyed the rest of the US navy at Pearl so he should have been more confident

[jlisenbe]

They had much of the same air power that had just sent four carriers to the bottom.

[paraclete]

They had lost the Yorktown and many squadrons, yes a few aircraft got through and inflicted heavy damage but the carriers were undefended and very depleted, no, the Japanese lost courage when they lost their carriers, but Yamamoto should have known he now had to fight without carriers

[jlisenbe]

but Yamamoto should have known he now had to fight without carriers

Even without the Yorktown, the U.S. still had two fleet carriers left, and Midway still had a number of combat aircraft available as well. Having already basically lost the naval war with the loss of four large carriers, Yamamoto knew the dance was basically over.

[paraclete]

Even without the Yorktown, the U.S. still had two fleet carriers left, and Midway still had a number of combat aircraft available as well. Having already basically lost the naval war with the loss of four large carriers, Yamamoto knew the dance was basically over.

Yamamoto didn't really have Midway as an objective, his objective was to destroy the american carriers, he failed his objective, and so he withdrew. He didn't have the bigger picture because he didn't know the size and disposition of the American force. The Japanese navy thought that if they could destroy the american pacific fleet, america would sue for peace. A bad miscalculation

[waltero]

He didn't have the bigger picture

you are right, America had the full picture. they knew exactly what was going on...deciphered Japanese code, radar etc.

Yamamoto should have known he now had to fight without carriers

A month earlier (Battle of the Coral Sea) was the first naval battle in history in which the ships involved never sighted or fired directly at each other. No Naval commander would go offense without (carriers) Air Support.

Yamamoto didn't really have Midway as an objective

Yamamoto, plotted a large-scale attack. It was meant to be a knockout blow.

his objective was to destroy the American carriers

Yes, but he knew there was more to it than that...the strategically important U.S. naval and air base on Midway.  

of course he was blind and had no way of knowing this
he should have been more confident

Yamamoto's entire strategy hinged on a surprise attack (he had been ambushed). Have to remember troop transports were involved. How confident should one be with troop transports on the line?

The Japanese lost courage when they lost their carriers

Morale was low. All hope was lost. Sinking a Battleship would have a huge negative morale effect. Negative morale of having one sunk caused Japanese to keep theirs in port and the Nazis to spend a lot of time and money trying to keep them hidden.

[tomder55]

In High Noon, his newlywed wife's decision to support him towards the end at the risk of her life was really nice.

One of Grace Kelly's best roles . She goes from being a pacifist to using extreme force to defend her husband .