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talaniman · Dec 30, 2020, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

WG, you voted to raise taxes on the wealthy. It's just that simple.

So did I and 80 million others. So what?

Wondergirl · Dec 30, 2020, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

WG, you voted to raise taxes on the wealthy. It's just that simple. It's the way it goes with liberal dems.

What does my being a moneyed registered Republican and voting to raise taxes on the wealthy have to do with the price of tea in China?

jlisenbe · Dec 30, 2020, 02:40 PM

What does my being a moneyed registered Republican and voting to raise taxes on the wealthy have to do with the price of tea in China?

So now you are "moneyed"? What happened to "modest income"? At any rate, you're the one who brought it up, so you'll have to be the one who answers that question.

talaniman · Jan 8, 2021, 10:11 AM

123,000 jobs lost in December, 4110 new deaths Jan. 7th! How's that capitalism working for us? Or is it the capitaLISTS who are failing? Or has OWS run out of gas?

Weekly jobless claims little changed despite signs of slower hiring (cnbc.com)

Coronavirus updates: People without symptoms make up 59% of virus spread; an American dies every 21 seconds in new daily record (yahoo.com)

More Than 17.5 Million Shots Given: Covid-19 Vaccine Tracker (bloomberg.com)

paraclete · Jan 8, 2021, 05:40 PM

you mean how is covid working for you, capitalism is working hard to find a solution because it is profitable to do so, millions, even billions of doses of vaccine, much money to be made. Eventually we will learn to live with it like the common cold, but until then ponder this; covid has replaced the flu and new variants have even replaced the original virus so eventually it will become benign and the crisis will be over

jlisenbe · Jan 9, 2021, 08:13 AM

capitalism is working hard to find a solution because it is profitable to do so,

You say you ran several businesses. Did you run them to make a profit? If so, and it is so, then how are you any different?

talaniman · Jan 9, 2021, 08:22 AM

Profit is one thing but I doubt Clete ran shell companies to hide money and launder dirty money or cheated customers and vendors intentionally. That's the difference between honest capitalism and criminal enterprise.

The laws seem inadequate to stop those with bad intentions and no boundaries of good behavior.

paraclete · Jan 9, 2021, 02:14 PM

JL the companies I ran operated on ethical principles, that is the difference

jlisenbe · Jan 9, 2021, 02:48 PM

JL the companies I ran operated on ethical principles, that is the difference

I know. I know. You are an economics genius and all of your high powered companies were paragons of virtue. Everyone else, of course, is a capitalist pig.

These companies achieved something very difficult in a remarkably short period of time. They are doubtless saving hundreds of thousands of lives and getting life back to "sort of normal" for all of us. but you have to find something to be critical about. Sheesh.

paraclete · Jan 9, 2021, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I know. I know. You are an economics genius and all of your high powered companies were paragons of virtue. Everyone else, of course, is a capitalist pig.

These companies achieved something very difficult in a remarkably short period of time. They are doubtless saving hundreds of thousands of lives and getting life back to "sort of normal" for all of us. but you have to find something to be critical about. Sheesh.

Capitalism has changed, today it's all about stockholder value, there is no social conscience, so if I'm critical it is because it doesn't have to be that way. Am I an economic genius, no, but neither is Trump, I am able to see the flaws and you see him as peerless.

I actually agree with some of the policies but the means are what I question and it isn't just Trump, some US policies have been disasters both domestically and internationally. Now, my country seems remote but our interest stems from the fact that what happens there seems to flow on here eventually. You are now entering into an era of left wing government, and I am hoping we don't follow you down that path as we seem to in the past

jlisenbe · Jan 9, 2021, 05:19 PM

there is no social conscience,

I'm sorry, but that's an absurd statement. I think it would be a very safe statement that practically every major American company donates to charity. I know it's a small thing, but the drug rehab facility I work with is practically flooded with donations. And that is not to mention that millions of Americans have jobs, income, and financial lives because of these companies. We have it so good it's ridiculous. God must frown at our complaining.

I visited my granddaughter in Austin. I walked into a Target store that had a sign advertising employment starting at fifteen dollars an hour. A husband/wife could work there and make over sixty thou a year combined. It's amazing. And yet people complain endlessly. That is actually the truly amazing part.

You are now entering into an era of left wing government, and I am hoping we don't follow you down that path as we seem to in the past

With that I agree completely. Once we lose the ability to borrow/print money, then it is going to become dark rather soon.

paraclete · Jan 9, 2021, 07:39 PM

Maybe so, but without China Target, like Walmart is bust. We have all settled for cheap but those $15 an hour wages are still a poverty level wage really and there is a limit to such "opportunities. My son lives in an economically depressed area and his wife works in a restaurant, sometimes two, while he does marketing, not much call for it and a good year would be if they brought in $60K. They made more money in the last year from covid relief for a few months but it is still week to week and the lift in property values has done wonders for them as the boomers leave the city

jlisenbe · Jan 9, 2021, 07:43 PM

$15 an hour wages are still a poverty level wage really and there is a limit to such "opportunities.

It absolutely is not. 60K a year for a married couple does not make a person rich, but you can certainly live at a respectable level with that money, and the pay will increase as you continue on and move up. And as to those limits, when stores put signs on doors advertising their need for help, then you are in a workers market. A person right now, who is willing to work, can easily get a job. Work sixty hours a week and you can get two jobs. It's there is a person wants it.

paraclete · Jan 9, 2021, 08:24 PM

Must be wonderful to live in a covid paradise on 60k a year, these are difficult times and such "opportunities" are not available everywhere. That level of income may work where you live but here you wouldn't get a bank loan on 60K a year, property prices are too high now and rising as the aged escape the cities and speculators move in.

jlisenbe · Jan 9, 2021, 08:28 PM

As you said, that is in Australia. Before I retired, we were living on my principal's salary which wasn't even 80K, so it can be done for sure. Now we have always been careful with our money, and went for our entire married lives with basically no debt other than our house. So 15 an hour is significantly above poverty. And such "opportunities" are all over the place. If you are willing to work 60 hours a week, then you are pulling down nine hundred a week.

I don't mean to push the point too hard, but there are jobs to be had by the dozens in my own area, and we are one of the poorer states in the country.

talaniman · Jan 9, 2021, 10:05 PM

That $15 dollar/hr wage just started in some places and doesn't even come close to making up for the decades of stagnation and terrible economic hardships poor people have had to deal with. Takes years to climb out of poverty or move up the ladder under the best circumstances for healthy people, but economic downturns, sickness, and death don't help at all, nor do rising prices and the cost of living.

paraclete · Jan 9, 2021, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

As you said, that is in Australia. Before I retired, we were living on my principal's salary which wasn't even 80K, so it can be done for sure. Now we have always been careful with our money, and went for our entire married lives with basically no debt other than our house. So 15 an hour is significantly above poverty. And such "opportunities" are all over the place. If you are willing to work 60 hours a week, then you are pulling down nine hundred a week.

I don't mean to push the point too hard, but there are jobs to be had by the dozens in my own area, and we are one of the poorer states in the country.

Jl I'm retired and live on less than $40K a year, careful planning and owning my own home allows a good lifestyle, wanting for nothing, but that's me and I'm not the norm. My government makes a lot of it possible as they incentivised self funded retirement. I'm a professional person with years of planning behind me. Dozens of jobs when millions are out of work doesn't cut it, covid has changed the landscape.

Part time is what many find available, not 60 hours but 20

jlisenbe · Jan 10, 2021, 06:17 AM

Part time is what many find available, not 60 hours but 20

That's not the case here, at least for the present time. A person who is willing to work can get all the hours he/she wants. It's hard to overstate how healthy the Trump economy was. Unemployment was seriously low, and a primary reason it's as high as it is now is because the feds have stupidly extended and increased unemployment benefits in their untiring efforts to buy votes with borrowed money. The silly campaign to raise the minimum wage ignores the fact that very few employers pay 7.65 an hour. Even fast food businesses in our area pay more than that. They have to in order to attract even relatively low quality employees.

paraclete · Jan 10, 2021, 04:27 PM

Jl, a minimum wage is about exploitation, not about what some employers pay. When I speak about a minimum wage I'm speaking of an adult wage, not an entry level junior wage. In our economy that wage is around $18/hour but it also is what many industries pay day labour and the like. Obviously in an economy short of labour wages will be higher but but you speak with distain about the quality available. People respond to the way they are treated, pay slave wages and you get slave mentality

jlisenbe · Jan 10, 2021, 04:48 PM

Jl, a minimum wage is about exploitation, not about what some employers pay. When I speak about a minimum wage I'm speaking of an adult wage, not an entry level junior wage. In our economy that wage is around $18/hour but it also is what many industries pay day labour and the like.

If it's "around" 18 an hour, then it is not set. The best way to get more money is to become a better, more highly skilled employee.

you speak with distain about the quality available.

That is actually what employers I know tell me. It's a funny thing. I go into Chik Fil A, and the service is outstanding. I go into McDonalds and the service is lousy.

People respond to the way they are treated, pay slave wages and you get slave mentality

And the reverse is true. Be a lousy employee and you get paid lousy employee wages. But fifteen bucks an hour is hardly slave wages.