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jlisenbe · May 3, 2021, 05:12 PM

Knowing Jesus is a learning process.

That's a very true statement. We must come to learn that HE is the reward, and we can know Him now and have great joy and peace even now. The faithfulness, greatness, glory, and life-changing power of Christ seems to me to be the message the church needs to preach endlessly.

waltero · May 4, 2021, 09:39 AM

Somebody once said: "I have covenanted with my Lord that He should not send visions or dreams or even angels! I am content with this gift of the Scriptures, which teaches and supplies all that is necessary, both for this life and that which is to come."
God may not send you a friend; he may not raise up a deliverer; but if he shall only give you to believe his Word, that shall be enough for you.

Earlier Post.
I believe we are witnesses, and we witness to the truth of Scripture. truth revealed in Scripture alone. God’s Word is sufficient and has the highest authority for all of life. Not the Bible and our own little fundamentalist predilections that we like to stick in there. Not the Bible and our own little legalistic tags. Not the Bible and anything at all. Just the Bible. The Bible tells us what the Bible means...not an infusion of God’s enabling power so that we may then work our own way towards a final redemptive conclusion, but the imputation of the righteousness of Christ; a forensic thing, so that it is all outside of me. All of my salvation is outside of me in the ultimate sense (grace).
No comprende?

God's word is fixed in the Heavens, and his faithfulness extends generation after generation. The promises of God are without recall. I am afeared for those who do not believe the Bible is the spoken Word of God. Afeared that you are missing the whole enchilada!

jlisenbe · May 4, 2021, 07:41 PM

Somebody once said: "I have covenanted with my Lord that He should not send visions or dreams or even angels! I am content with this gift of the Scriptures, which teaches and supplies all that is necessary, both for this life and that which is to come."
God may not send you a friend; he may not raise up a deliverer; but if he shall only give you to believe his Word, that shall be enough for you.

I'll take those dreams, visions, and angels, but I do like your point. The last sentence is especially good. His word is wonderful, powerful, and points us always to Jesus.

waltero · May 5, 2021, 10:39 AM

I'll take those dreams, visions, and angels

That's what Joseph Smith said. DOH!

Wondergirl · May 5, 2021, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by waltero

That's what Joseph Smith said. DOH!

My claim to fame: I grew up near Palmyra, NY, the birthplace of the LDS movement, where Joseph had those dreams, visions, and saw those angels. I have walked through the sacred grove and climbed the hill Cumorah (but I didn't dig up any golden plates).

All of my salvation is outside of me in the ultimate sense (grace).

There is nothing we can do to earn salvation. It is God's gift to us. Our response is to love Him and each other.

Could the older brother earn the father's love by his faithfulness to duty? -- or was he confident he had, thus his disappointment and even anger.

waltero · May 5, 2021, 11:31 AM

Our response is to love Him and each other.

The Love that comes from "outside of me". True, in-deed (pun intended).
Ain't got nutting to do with "My Love"...my love, oh my love, does it better (Not)

jlisenbe · May 5, 2021, 12:10 PM

I don’t think JS saw visions or had dreams. He claimed to have seen an angel. Highly suspicious story.

It is true we cannot earn salvation, but it does require us to repent and believe.

waltero · May 5, 2021, 12:17 PM

Not sure, I think he seen a vision of an Angel in a dream he had. Why subject yourself to dreams and visions? Sure they are nice, but a person can get into all kinds of Trouble putting their faith in such beliefs.

Wondergirl · May 5, 2021, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I don’t think JS saw visions or had dreams. He claimed to have seen an angel. Highly suspicious story.

"In early Church records, there are references to several dreams attributed to Joseph Smith Jr.1 They were recorded by Joseph himself, his clerks, or others who interacted with him. For the most part, Joseph’s dreams include no explanation, by either him or the recorder, concerning their purpose or interpretation. Yet, we know that Joseph viewed dreams as a legitimate channel of revelation, as evidenced in the fact that he recorded his dreams and used them in his public sermons."
https://www.ldsliving.com/Joseph-Smi...s-Life/s/91424

"The Prophet Joseph Smith had his first vision at the age of fourteen while praying in a grove of trees in western New York (see First Vision). The appearance of the Lord to him, like that to Saul of Tarsus, was attended by a shining light from heaven (Acts 9:3). The Lord spoke face-to-face with Joseph and called him to service. This was the first of a series of visions Joseph Smith received...."@
https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Visions_of_Joseph_Smith

It is true we cannot earn salvation, but it does require us to repent and believe.

We can't even believe on our own. We can only say no.

jlisenbe · May 5, 2021, 12:22 PM

Read the prophecy of Joel in Acts 2. They are promised.

Wondergirl · May 5, 2021, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by waltero

Not sure, I think he seen a vision of an Angel in a dream he had.

The Angel Moroni showed him where to find the golden plates that were buried on the hill Cumorah!

"Smith said that on the night of September 21, 1823, Moroni appeared to him and told him about the golden plates that were buried in a stone box a few miles from Smith's home. Smith said that the same angel visited him various times over the course of the next six years; Smith also said that the angel visited him to retrieve the golden plates after Smith had finished translating a portion of the writing on the plates into the Book of Mormon." (Wikipedia)

jlisenbe · May 5, 2021, 12:43 PM

The Book of Mormon is based on the golden plates and not on dreams and visions. It has proven to be historically unreliable in the extreme.

WG you must repent and believe. It’s throughout the Bible.

Wondergirl · May 5, 2021, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The Book of Mormon is based on the golden plates and not on dreams and visions. It has proven to be historically unreliable in the extreme.

Ah, you're an LDS historian!

WG you must repent and believe. It’s throughout the Bible.

The Apostles Creed, Luther's explanation of the Third Article (why does the Holy Spirit exist):
"I believe thatI believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith. In the same way He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith. In this Christian church He daily and richly forgives all my sins and the sins of all believers. On the Last Day He will raise me and all the dead, and give eternal life to me and all believers in Christ. I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith. In the same way He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith. In this Christian church He daily and richly forgives all my sins and the sins of all believers. On the Last Day He will raise me and all the dead, and give eternal life to me and all believers in Christ."

waltero · May 5, 2021, 01:27 PM

WG you must repent and believe.

Are you able to believe your Sins have been forgiven?

I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him

Wondergirl · May 5, 2021, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by waltero

Are you able to believe your Sins have been forgiven?

If I've confessed my sins and am told they have been forgiven, yes.

waltero · May 5, 2021, 02:09 PM

told they have been forgiven

Not sure I understand what you mean by this?

Confess my sins (at the Cross), I will know for certain they have been forgiven,

Wondergirl · May 5, 2021, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by waltero

Not sure I understand what you mean by this?

Confess my sins (at the Cross), I will know for certain they have been forgiven,

What Cross? One in your bedroom? Who says you're forgiven?

waltero · May 5, 2021, 02:19 PM

Luke 23:12; Romans 8:7, "The mind of the flesh is enmity against God." James 4:4 , "The friendship of the world is enmity with God" (because "the world" is preferred to God); in Ephesians 2:15,16 , Christ is said to have "abolished in his flesh the enmity," by His cross to have "slain the enmity," that is, the opposition between Jew and Gentile, creating in Himself "one new man, (so) making peace."
You are clearly of this world, enjoy while it last.

Wondergirl · May 5, 2021, 02:24 PM

You are clearly of this world, enjoy while it last.

Sooooo, anyone who challenges you and tries to make you think clearly is "of this world". You really disappoint me, waltero. We were doing so well!

jlisenbe · May 5, 2021, 02:30 PM

Ah, you're an LDS historian!

I have studied the Mormons. Been a few years, but I've read considerably on them.

You quote Luther. I quote the Bible.

Mark 1:15 ESV And saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Acts 2:38 ESV And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8 ESV For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Romans 10:9 ESV Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Mark 16:16 ESV Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Matthew 4:17 ESV From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”