[tomder55]

In March 2002, President George W. Bush imposed a 30% tariff on Chinese steel. The results were chaotic.
The tariffs boosted the overall prices of steel and cost the U.S. 200,000 jobs in businesses that buy steel, representing $4 billion in lost wages.

http://www.tradepartnership.com/pdf_...02jobstudy.pdf

This study employed straight-forward and widely-accepted regression analysis using a variety of price and employment data to maximize the reliability of the results. We found that (bold added):
• 200,000 Americans lost their jobs to higher steel prices during 2002. These lost jobs represent approximately $4 billion ($5.5 billion in today’s dollars) in lost wages from February to November 2002.
• One out of four (50,000) of these job losses occurred in the metal manufacturing, machinery and equipment and transportation equipment and parts sectors.
• Job losses escalated steadily over 2002, peaking in November (at 202,000 jobs), and slightly declining to 197,000 jobs in December.
• More American workers lost their jobs in 2002 to higher steel prices than the total number employed by the U.S. steel industry itself (187,500 Americans were employed by U.S. steel producers in December 2002).
• Every U.S. state experienced employment losses from higher steel costs, with the highest losses occurring in California (19,392 jobs lost), Texas (15,826 jobs lost), Ohio (10,553 jobs lost), Michigan (9,829 jobs lost), Illinois (9,621 jobs lost), Pennsylvania (8,400 jobs lost), New York (8,901 jobs lost) and Florida (8,370 jobs lost). Sixteen states lost at least 4,500 steel consuming jobs each over the course of 2002 from higher steel prices.
• The analysis shows that American steel consumers have borne heavy costs from higher steel prices caused by shortages, tariffs and trade remedy duties, among other factors. Some customers of steel consumers have moved sourcing offshore as U.S. producers of steel-containing products became less reliable and more expensive. Other customers refused to accept higher prices from their suppliers and forced them to absorb the higher steel costs, which put many in a precarious (or worse) financial condition. The impact on steel-consuming industries has been significant.

The costs of protectionism always outweigh the benefits, and the jobs lost always outweigh the jobs saved, and that net loss of economic value is also reflected in stock market values ...the losses in market value suffered broadly by steel using industries outweighed the concentrated gains to the firms in the protected industry.

This model also held true when Reagan imposed tariffs to protect Harley Davidson. It is too early to gage the impact of Trump's silly tariffs on Canadian lumber and paper .One

small company in Washington state, Northern Pacific Paper, pushed for the paper tariffs . It employs 260 workers.

A Canadian company that employs 2,500 Americans will be hit by both the lumber and paper tariffs. There is the logic of protectionism in a nut shell. Trump argues that the steel tariffs are a national security concern . But that argument falls on it's face when you consider that American industry uses 70% US steel ,and a good part of the balance is supplied by allies .

All his steel tariffs will do is drive the cost of the raw materials used in industries like ......oh let's say the CONSTRUCTION industry ...of which Trump is allegedly a captain of . . go figure .

[paraclete]

Trump has to do something to keep his constituency happy, and shooting at offshore targets is his way. So now the heat is off on gun control while everyone focuses on the fallout from a trade war and Russia's new nukes. You have to accept the truth, american industry isn't as competitive as it used to be. There is a reason why manufacturing is done in low wage countries. However a new opportunity is opening up for innovative american industry, China no longer wants to import rubbish (recycled waste) for processing.

[tomder55]

America dominated post war when most of our competition was in rubble . It was inevitable that the US would give up market share . And it is a good thing. We have given up making trinkets and our manufacturing sector is thriving thank you very much with 21st century manufacturing . The emperor's shackles are being dismantled and American innovation unchained will dominate the future . We do not need protectionism for our products except for outright theft like the Chinese are wont to do.

[talaniman]

Contrary to popular belief Dufus has done nothing to change the basics of a solid economy he walked into, and I just got my $25 dollar tax cut. How much was yours Tom?

Darn I just wrote a ton on this in the other thread, so we agree on his trade war stupidity, but as I have maintained he needed to change the subject from his WH woes, and the Mueller investigation, and the gun control stuff. He is the best at that, but he better figure out the process quickly or his party will suffer.

It ain't even spring yet!

[paraclete]

America dominated post war when most of our competition was in rubble . It was inevitable that the US would give up market share . And it is a good thing. We have given up making trinkets and our manufacturing sector is thriving thank you very much with 21st century manufacturing . The emperor's shackles are being dismantled and American innovation unchained will dominate the future . We do not need protectionism for our products except for outright theft like the Chinese are wont to do.

You really do have to stop drinking that Koolaid Dump is dispensing. If you look at history civilisations rise and decline, the decline is painful and they are never as strong as they were before, but Britain has shown the way, they survived the dismantling of their empire, lots of pain but now they are strong

It ain't even spring yet!

Beware the ides of March tal

[talaniman]

The Chinese have plenty up their sleeves, and more to come, since they made Xi the president for life. That alone would make The orange Dufus green with envy.

[tomder55]

If you look at history civilisations rise and decline, the decline is painful and they are never as strong as they were before, but Britain has shown the way, they survived the dismantling of their empire, lots of pain but now they are strong

Britain is a basket case . Their empire is dismantling on their own island .But their empire lasted a good 500 years . The Republic of Rome lasted 500 years and the empire 1500 years . Our greatness is in it's infancy .

[paraclete]

. Our greatness is in it's infancy .

I really don't want to shatter your illusions and your sense of history is a little off. You have already had to give up parts of your empire and your recent acquisitions have not gone well.

[tomder55]

territory of empires ebb and flow throughout history . Britain's greatest time came after they lost the American colonies . They would've lost Aussie too if your nation did not breast feed for so long.

America willingly gave up territory conquered ....something unique in the history of empires . Yes we won the continent at the point of the sword ,and through purchases . The only territory we retain from the Spanish American war is Puerto Rico and Guam ;and Puerto Rico could opt for independence any time they want to. We took no territory after the 2 world wars.Instead we stood as guardian at the gates making sure the communist nations did not enslave all of the nations liberated from Japan and Germany . Our forays into the ummah are to battle an extreme ideology ;not territorial acquisition Had we used the tactics of the Brits to suppress their colonies instead of liberating nations then we would have the most expansive empire in world history .

[talaniman]

I really don't want to shatter your illusions and your sense of history is a little off. You have already had to give up parts of your empire and your recent acquisitions have not gone well.

You wish! Despite the challenges and obstacles we are still growing as dynamically as anybody. Just can't give the top dog credit for still being the top dog can you? Doesn't matter not one bit what the rest of the dogs are yapping about, or what they do about it!

Now what?

[tomder55]

double uugh !!! Now he is threatening a trade war with the EU ! https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...94273121820672

Domestic auto makers in the US are NOT suffering from EU competition. In fact many of the Euro brands have opened plants in the US and hire American workers ;including Fiat /Chrysler ;VW , Volvo And BMW . BMW hires almost 9,000 US employees in SC .VW 2000 in Chattanooga; Mercedes-Benz 4000 in Alabama. I guess it is a safe move because tariffs would not work on US cars sold in Europe . Most Europeans do not like American cars so the market isn't all that big to begin with .

[paraclete]

Tom, Dump has little understanding of anything outside his narrow sphere of influence. He doesn't know how international trade works, he doesn't know how diplomacy works, he doesn't know how politics works, and he certainly doesn't know that economies transition.

Dump does not understand that the EU and China are very big trade partners, the flow of raw materials is important, and the flow of manufactures equally important. He doesn't understand that NAFTA has meant a broader sphere than just the US, there is an interdependancy.

You can get in to the micro economics of autos or steel manufacture and fabrication, whiskey or aeroplanes, which is the level Dump operates but he has to learn macro economics

[talaniman]

He's a hit with the shock-jock crowd and the anti-liberals, and anti- government and a bunch of other dissatisfied constituents, and his base is the same base repubs will need to hold power during the coming elections, and they don't dare openly oppose him, no matter what he says or does. He knows that, and plays it like a fiddle.

It's Trumps party and establishment repubs can cry if they want to, as long as they fall in line.

[paraclete]

Wish me luck as you wave me goodbye, Dump is engineering a crash so his buddies can take over

[talaniman]

That's exactly what The Dufus wants. Get everyone excited and hair on fire over his words. Will the repubs in the congress act to curb his impulses? To address the REAL national security issues we face, both foreign and domestic? That's the real question.

He's a Dufus and everybody knows that!

[talaniman]

So the bully in chief is at it again!

Trump Gives New NAFTA or Tariffs Ultimatum to Canada, Mexico | Fortune

Trump’s decision on tariffs came on Thursday in the middle of talks, catching negotiators off guard. On Sunday, Trump’s senior trade advisers said the president doesn’t want any nation excluded from the tariffs, set to be imposed as early as this week. Canada, the biggest supplier of steel and aluminum to the U.S., and Mexico, the No. 4 source of steel, have asked to be excluded, and both indicated they will strike back if Trump includes them in the stiff duties.

[paraclete]

You may as well disband NAFTA now, this is what Dump wants; a protectionist barrier. He is all about building walls, tariff walls, border walls, before long he will build a great internet fire wall just like his buddy Xi.

I wonder does he lay awake at night and ponder how he can screw everyone

[Wondergirl]

I wonder does he lay awake at night and ponder how he can screw everyone

He wants to be President for Life and Emperor of the US.

[paraclete]

He wants to be President for Life and Emperor of the US.

Could you imagine that a dingbat on the throne for life, he will probably outdo farmer George in stupid ideas. You remember he was the one who imposed a tax on tea, and lost the americas.

[tomder55]

George was mad . But it was Parliament that imposed the

Townshend Acts of 1767, named after Charles

Townshend ,the Chancellor of the Exchequer who proposed the taxes . Ironically it was a form of tariff because the colonies did not produce their own tea (there were also import duties on

glass, lead, paints, paper

). Well that had the predictable result . The colonist used less of these items and organized boycotts and of course there was smuggling . So Lord North rescinded the provisions except for tea . The

1773 Tea Act was passed, which allowed the East India Company to ship tea directly to the colonies. Then there was the Tea Party led by the Sons of Liberty and one of my favorite Founders ;Samuel Adams ,the cousin of John Adams .