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    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #61

    Aug 4, 2017, 09:36 AM
    Wrong ..........Natalia Veselnitskaya was cleared into the United States by the Lynch Justice Department under “extraordinary circumstances”;without a visa , just days before she met with Trump Jr.
    She had previously had been turned down for a visa to enter the U.S. lawfully but then was granted special immigration parole by Lynch (who denies she had anything to do with it ;but in is not in dispute that her Justice Dept issued the “extraordinary circumstances” waiver .


    Veselnitskaya arranged the meeting under the pretext of giving Trump Jr information she had about Evita . But when the meeting began she only wanted to talk about the Magnitsky Act .So Trump ended the meeting .

    What Mueller is hoping to do is catch one of the participants in a 'process crime' ,probably a slight contradiction in narratives like what happened to Scotter Libby ..
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 835, Reputation: 55
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    #62

    Aug 4, 2017, 11:43 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Veselnitskaya arranged the meeting under the pretext of giving Trump Jr information she had about Evita . But when the meeting began she only wanted to talk about the Magnitsky Act .So Trump ended the meeting .

    You're missing the point. It is not WHAT they talked about, it is HOW EAGER Trump Jr was to get some dirt on Hillary which was what was promised to him and why he agreed to the meeting. No one, including Trump Jr or Sr, disputes this fact.

    And to imply that Lynch arranged the meeting to entrap Junior is beyond absurd. That's right out of the Sean Hannity playbook.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #63

    Aug 4, 2017, 01:16 PM

    1. it is HOW EAGER Trump Jr was to get some dirt on Hillary which was what was promised to him and why he agreed to the meeting. No one, including Trump Jr or Sr, disputes this fact.
    Your right ;no one disputes that . Where is the crime ? Opposition research is the name of the game .1984 Ted Kennedy was willing to work with the KGB in his opposition to Reagan . 2005 the Dems wanted financial information on Michael Steele who was considering running for a vacant Senate seat in Maryland ,so Schmuck Schumer sent a couple of operatives to dumpster dive so to speak . They obtained Steele’s confidential credit report by using his Social Security number, which they had culled from court records ;a blatantly illegal act under the federal Fair Credit Reporting Act. The 2 staffers were suspended with pay for their punishment .

    Face facts ;dirty tricks and opposition research are as American as apple pie. Go back to the contest between Jefferson and Adams and you'll find plenty of examples . Heck the Steele dossier was just another dirty trick
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #64

    Aug 4, 2017, 07:38 PM
    So it doesn't matter who you are, your goose is cooked
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,321, Reputation: 10855
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    #65

    Aug 4, 2017, 08:51 PM
    If Clinton can go through the impeachment process for lying about his sex life, Trump can get impeached for lying to everybody, about everything. Maybe the senate will save his presidency, after they have exposed him to the public. Have you seen his numbers? The most unpopular candidate is the most unpopular president ever... so far, and I doubt it gets better.

    After 6 months repubs are starting to put him in his place, as well they should. This dude is off his frigging rocker. Only a looney could love him.

    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    So it doesn't matter who you are, your goose is cooked
    He's a DUCK, but you can cook those too!
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 835, Reputation: 55
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    #66

    Aug 4, 2017, 08:57 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Your right ;no one disputes that . Where is the crime ?

    Isolated, there is no crime. Yet, it points to a willingness to collude with the Russians to undermine an American presidential election. It's part of a widespread pattern of Russian interference on Trump's behalf. Now we know that Trump Sr was instrumental in creating the excuse for junior when Senior initially denied any involvement. Why all the lying?

    And why do you insist on excusing present behavior with some "news" from as far back as 1984 sourced, no doubt, from an alt-right website?

    There is so much smoke coming from all the prevarication of Trump and his cronies that soon it will all burst into flame and Mueller will be right there waiting.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #67

    Aug 5, 2017, 02:02 AM
    Special prosecutors are appointed after a crime ;not to fish to find a crime. The biggest problem in the past has been prosecutors digging and digging until they find a process crime instead of evidence of the underlying crime being committed .
    Politicians seek dirt on other candidates ;the dirtier the better. That is what “opposition research” is all about.That is why I bring up history ;to show that it is not unusual for campaigns to go to great lengths to find mud .The Ukrainian government sought to assist Evita's campaign by supplying damaging information regarding Manafort to a Democratic operative. Embassy officials “worked very closely” with the operative to expose Manafort’s work for Viktor Yanukovych;And the DNC encouraged the operative to meet with the Ukrainian ambassador.Was that a crime ? No . But under the standards being applied to the Trump Jr meeting it is .

    Even if there was "collusion ",collusion is not a federal crime except in antitrust law.We do not have a federal statute punishing efforts to influence an election, unless done by particular prohibited acts such as vote buying or illegal political contributions.

    Legally it’s not enough for an associate of the president to work together with a Russian.The American would need to work with a Russian to commit a crime, to aid a Russian in committing a crime or to conceal a crime committed by a Russian. As an example ,the hacking of servers and giving the emails to WikiLeaks. Anyone who aided in the hacking of those servers committed a crime. But Mueller already knows no one in the Trump campaign was involved in that . Did Trump Jr solicit contributions from the Russian lawyer (as we know the Clintoons have done in the past ) ? That would've been a crime . But we know from all accounts that did not happen.
    It could be crime if someone offered to act in an official capacity, by repealing a law or discontinuing sanctions against Russia, in exchange for something of value.By all accounts the meeting was abruptly ended when Veselnitskaya mentioned the Magnitsky Act. If there was a quid pro quo ;damaging information on Evita in exchange for the repeal of the Magnitsky Act ,then you have your crime . But we know that did not happen.

    If anything ,Mueller should be looking at the role of the DNC in the hackings . What role did Debbie Wasserman Schultz and her IT team of Imran Awan and family have in the hacking of servers during the campaign ;or the release of emails to Wiki ?

    But inspector Robert Javert Mueller is a Democrat poodle and a close crony of James Comey .He is obsessed with finding anything that he can pin on Trump.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,321, Reputation: 10855
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    #68

    Aug 5, 2017, 04:21 AM
    Lots of assertions but we do have a crime, by Flynn, and that opens up the whole can of worms to verify and follow. That's where the investigation started if you remember that ensnared the Trump cohorts. Then there is Manafort and his ties to big RUSSIAN money, We will see where it leads won't we.

    Funny how you never wonder how Manafort got involved in the Trump campaign at such a high level in the first place given his known history of Russian ties. I call those two lines of inquiry PROBABLE CAUSE to look deeper, wouldn't you? Sure digging for dirt on political opponents is standard, and not a crime, but working with adversarial nations is collusion, and trying to thwart an investigation into that collusion is OBSTRUCTION. Not being honest on FEDERAL documents is a crime, and we have PLENTY of PROBABLE CAUSE for that.

    So while you dig into your allegations of democratic wrong doing, why ignore Trump wrong doing? Seems to me that the 30 year Clinton investigation was a witch hunt too, but nobody on your side acknowledges that. Now if you were saying dems are better criminal then I can go along with that, since repubs have noise, but no charges on dems after this long and MANY investigations into EVERYTHING Clinton, or we have better investigators, a notion I reject since it's bipartisan investigators digging into Trump.

    The only fish that's important is the one you catch, and fairy tales are made about the one that got away.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #69

    Aug 5, 2017, 09:15 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Where is the crime ?
    Hello tom:

    Obstruction of justice is the crime.. When he fired Comey, he did it to end the investigation... He said so on live TV.. What they were investigating isn't relevant. That they WERE investigating and Trump INTERFERED, is relevant.. It's textbook obstruction.

    excon
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,321, Reputation: 10855
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    #70

    Aug 5, 2017, 09:45 AM
    This is how WHITE COLLAR crime is uncovered Tom. It's not like rich guys or big money wears a hoodie and hangs out on the corner, or runs in a bank hollering "stick 'em up!". Wouldn't you investigate a chronic liar after he does suspicious stuff? Naw! I guess you wouldn't because a rich guy with a team of lawyers can do NO WRONG in your book.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #71

    Aug 5, 2017, 10:36 AM
    Hate to break it to you the President can fire the director of the FBI ,or any other executive branch employee for any reason. But I'm glad you've all admitted finally that there is no crime related to Russian "hacking ".

    Flynn did not talk with Sergey Kislyak until Dec 29 ,almost 2 months after the election .If Flynn did anything illegal it was in his relationship with Turkey ;not Russia.

    Manafort was hired to run the convention phase of the campaign .He worked for Trump from March until the end of August . That means he had nothing to do with the campaign after Trump was the nominee .
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,321, Reputation: 10855
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    #72

    Aug 5, 2017, 12:39 PM
    That makes Trump a real dufus if he didn't know his National Security Advisor/campaign worker worked for Turkey and was taking money illegally per his military regulations. Or that his campaign manager worked for the Ukraine government when they were hooked up with Russia, OR firing the guy investigating these two would NOT LOOK GOOD! Just like it doesn't look good that PENCE knew NOTHING when he ran his mouth in public.

    Tom come on, being that dumb and stupid should be a crime! That's just the obvious stuff! If Trump worked as hard to repeal and replace with something GREAT as he does trying to stop this investigation we would all be happy but NOOOOOOOOOO, we get his lying tweets everyday, while he throws red meat to his base voters when he gets caught in them.

    Give him a chance you say? Seriously? Tell that to repubs who have finally found the guts to corral this loose cannon.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 835, Reputation: 55
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    #73

    Aug 5, 2017, 12:59 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    But I'm glad you've all admitted finally that there is no crime related to Russian "hacking ".

    Sorry, but the only admission was mine, none of the others, and mine was strictly re Junior's taking a meeting, nothing else.
    JMAttero's Avatar
    JMAttero Posts: 6, Reputation: 1
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    #74

    Aug 5, 2017, 02:39 PM
    I believe the actual laws state that AFTER A CRIME HAS BEEN DISCOVERED they convene a Special Prosecutor. As far as I know, after months of digging, there STILL is no identifiable crime!!

    Therefore, this is nothing but a witch hunt.

    Sent from my LG-D415 using Tapatalk
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,321, Reputation: 10855
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    #75

    Aug 5, 2017, 03:24 PM
    Are you guys that blind? The crime is Flynn, and Manafort, and their foreign connections and that ties the Trump campaign guys in by association. It didn't help that Trump wanted the FBI to back off Flynn, or firing Comey when he didn't, or bragging to the Russians he did it to stop the investigation. So you guys just keep repeating after Trump about witch hunts because OPINIONs from the peanut gallery don't matter.

    All that matters is what comes of the investigation that started because of faulty paper work to the feds by a host of Trump sycophants to get security clearances and the lies about it. I guess the fact he was railing on Sessions to get him to quit, then wanted to move him from DOJ, to appoint another AG that would fire Mueller doesn't look suspicious enough for some folks, but even repubs are getting wise to the tricks so the kept the congress open so no recess appointments, and informed the Orange dude no AG appointments the rest of the year, but if you guys want to still believe their I nothing to see move along, and this is a witch hunt, then okay, your boy Dufus is a witch!

    I can go with that!
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,517, Reputation: 5430
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    #76

    Aug 5, 2017, 03:31 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by JMAttero View Post
    I believe the actual laws state that AFTER A CRIME HAS BEEN DISCOVERED they convene a Special Prosecutor. As far as I know, after months of digging, there STILL is no identifiable crime!!

    Therefore, this is nothing but a witch hunt.
    - A grand jury is a legal body empowered to conduct official proceedings and investigate potential criminal conduct, and determine whether criminal charges should be brought. A grand jury may compel the production of documents and compel sworn testimony of witnesses to appear before it. A grand jury is separate from the courts, which do not preside over its functioning. (Wikipedia)

    - A group of people chosen at random that sits on a regular basis to hear evidence brought by a prosecutor. The prosecutor presents evidence against a person that he or she thinks will justify an indictment (formal charges) and a trial. Grand juries, unlike petit juries, meet in secret, need not reach unanimous decisions, and do not decide on a person's guilt or innocence (they only decide whether the person should stand trial). (Nolo)
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #77

    Aug 5, 2017, 07:57 PM
    Grand jury bombshell rocks media, but calm down: This is what prosecutors do | Fox News
    JMAttero's Avatar
    JMAttero Posts: 6, Reputation: 1
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    #78

    Aug 6, 2017, 03:59 AM
    Please show me where I mentioned a Grand Jury in my earlier post. My comment was in regards to the laws surrounding the appointment of a SPECIAL PROSECUTOR.

    Sent from my LG-D415 using Tapatalk
    JMAttero's Avatar
    JMAttero Posts: 6, Reputation: 1
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    #79

    Aug 6, 2017, 04:01 AM
    Mt vomment (above) was directed at Wondergirl. I am not sure why her comment didn't show.


    Sent from my LG-D415 using Tapatalk
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,321, Reputation: 10855
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    #80

    Aug 6, 2017, 05:15 AM
    Welcome guy, and did you use the Reply with Quote button?

    The right accuses the left of a witch hunt when it is Trumps own appointee Rosenstein, that appointed Mueller, who is a republican. Is this a lie, fake news, or just a stupid assertion by a Dufus?

    Mueller was also interviewed by Trump for FBI director. Funny how he blames the dems for his problems and his followers and sympathizers just swallow his lies hook, line, and sinker.

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