[classyT]

Wait a minute, OK. Let me see if I got this right, you believe moses lived during Grace because of his faith? I will agree that Joseph, Abraham... the ones who lived before the law, lived under God's grace.. BUT I do not think poor ol Moses did. You do? Clearly it IS taking me a bit longer... in fact, we will discuss this very thread right after the rapture. Find me. Lol

[Wondergirl]

Wait a minute, OK. Let me see if I got this right, you believe moses lived during Grace because of his faith? I will agree that Joseph, Abraham... the ones who lived before the law, lived under God's grace.. BUT I do not think poor ol Moses did. You do? Clearly it IS taking me a bit longer... in fact, we will discuss this very thread right after the rapture. Find me. Lol

Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.

Sounds to me like Moses lived under God's Grace.

[classyT]

WG,

Wow. So if you have faith, you are automatically under God's Grace. I don't think you understand what Jesus died to give us.

[Wondergirl]

WG,

Wow. So if you have faith, you are automatically under God's Grace. I don't think you understand what Jesus died to give us.

Huh? You're NOT under God's Grace if you have faith?

Tell me. What did Jesus die to give us?

[dwashbur]

WG,

Wow. So if you have faith, you are automatically under God's Grace. I don't think you understand what Jesus died to give us.

Well, let's see. What does that passage say again?

Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.

"By faith Moses [did all these things]. He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ...because he was looking ahead to his reward."

Moses didn't just have faith, he had faith IN CHRIST, though he didn't understand it at the time. Still, the writer credits him with it. And the key element is faith. So yes, this does say that Moses had faith in Christ and was saved thereby.

So it would seem that if you have faith (in Christ, whether incipient or post-resurrection), you are under God's grace. Whether you're Moses or Paul. That's what it says.

[classyT]

Ok. I am not disputing that Moses had Faith. I know that, I get it and I get the blood of bulls and goats were a type and it only covered their sin until the true Lamb came to die. I disagree with you about Moses being under grace! The LAW was given by Moses BUT GRACE and TRUTH came trough Jesus Christ. What do you do with that verse? Moses was a man under law, the law is all about Man DOING to please God... you shall not, you shall not in order for God to bless them. But Grace supplies his blessings for free. Ephesians says we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing. Moses lived under demand, I live under supply. What Jesus did at the cross qualifies me for God to reign his grace on me, and it was NOT SO for those under the law. Moses first order of business was to turn water into blood and that brought death. Jesus turned water into wine, resulting in life and celebration. The first Pentecost when Moses came down from getting the two tablets about 3,000 men died! That was the very first Pentecost according to Jewish scholars, the first Pentecost after Christ rose from the dead 3,000 men were saved! Night and day... Also take note before the law was given, they way the Lord dealt with those children of Israel, was pure grace, the grumbled, they whined, they complained and God just supplied! No one died. There is not one recorded death until after the law was given. God changed his tuned with them and told Moses to tell them they could not draw near. I don't understand how you don't see all that? These people had to DO and WORK to please God, Jesus died and now I am accepted in the beloved just because I believe. They absolutely were not under GRACE! Oh yes, the Lord was still merciful with them, its not the same thing.

It's called the Old covenant and the New covenant. God found fault with the old. Now where sin abounds, Grace super abounds. Grace is the antidote for sin. This was not the case under the law. God visited the people under the laws sins to the third and forth generations, but ME? My sins and iniquities he remembers NO MORE. Paul clearly says God is not imputing sin to us. He did IMPUTE sin to the people under the law. Yes Moses was credited because of his faith. I know this but it is NOT the same as being under Grace. The man was under the law, he GAVE the Law for heaven sakes to the people. Remember the mount of transfiguration? Moses and Elijah were there shining like Jesus and Peter, said let's build tabernacles... what happened? God shut him up... It's not about the Law and the prophets anymore... he said This is my beloved son, HEAR HIM! It was time for the law and the prophets to go bye bye... Grace had come. It's was new and so new that poor Peter even had a hard time grasping it, Paul had to correct him.

I am so confused that you don't see this? You have to know this... right? And yes, all those people under the law and before Christ had faith and it was credited to them. BUT GOD didn't deal with those people under the law, like he does with us today. OK, I'm rambling but I don't understand how you can't see Grace is different from the Law.

[dwashbur]

I have more to reply but don't have the time right now. But I do want to address this:

"It's called the Old covenant and the New covenant. God found fault with the old."

God CREATED the "old." So I guess you're saying he goofed and had to fix it, right?

Ok. I am not disputing that Moses had Faith. I know that, I get it and I get the blood of bulls and goats were a type and it only covered their sin until the true Lamb came to die. I disagree with you about Moses being under grace! The LAW was given by Moses BUT GRACE and TRUTH came trough Jesus Christ. What do you do with that verse? Moses was a man under law, the law is all about Man DOING to please God... you shall not, you shall not in order for God to bless them. But Grace supplies his blessings for free. Ephesians says we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing. Moses lived under demand, I live under supply. What Jesus did at the cross qualifies me for God to reign his grace on me, and it was NOT SO for those under the law. Moses first order of business was to turn water into blood and that brought death. Jesus turned water into wine, resulting in life and celebration. The first Pentecost when Moses came down from getting the two tablets about 3,000 men died! That was the very first Pentecost according to Jewish scholars, the first Pentecost after Christ rose from the dead 3,000 men were saved! Night and day... Also take note before the law was given, they way the Lord dealt with those children of Israel, was pure grace, the grumbled, they whined, they complained and God just supplied! No one died. There is not one recorded death until after the law was given. God changed his tuned with them and told Moses to tell them they could not draw near. I don't understand how you don't see all that? These people had to DO and WORK to please God, Jesus died and now I am accepted in the beloved just because I believe. They absolutely were not under GRACE! Oh yes, the Lord was still merciful with them, its not the same thing.

It's called the Old covenant and the New covenant. God found fault with the old. Now where sin abounds, Grace super abounds. Grace is the antidote for sin. This was not the case under the law. God visited the people under the laws sins to the third and forth generations, but ME? My sins and iniquities he remembers NO MORE. Paul clearly says God is not imputing sin to us. He did IMPUTE sin to the people under the law. Yes Moses was credited because of his faith. I know this but it is NOT the same as being under Grace. The man was under the law, he GAVE the Law for heaven sakes to the people. Remember the mount of transfiguration? Moses and Elijah were there shining like Jesus and Peter, said let's build tabernacles... what happened? God shut him up... It's not about the Law and the prophets anymore... he said This is my beloved son, HEAR HIM! It was time for the law and the prophets to go bye bye... Grace had come. It's was new and so new that poor Peter even had a hard time grasping it, Paul had to correct him.

I am so confused that you don't see this? You have to know this... right? And yes, all those people under the law and before Christ had faith and it was credited to them. BUT GOD didn't deal with those people under the law, like he does with us today. OK, I'm rambling but I don't understand how you can't see Grace is different from the Law.

[classyT]

Hebrews 8:7 I didn't say it the writer of Hebrews did! For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, "behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah Not according to the covenant I made with their fathers in the days when I took them by the had to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord! He didn't goof! He knew exactly what he was doing! The Law is perfect and righteous it just had no ability to make ME perfect and righteous! All it could do for me, is condemn me. Therefore, Jesus fulfilled the law, became my perfect sacrifice and made me righteous apart from the law... it's called GRACE! This is Christianity 101... I so don't understand what it is you believe! The law demands righteousness and grace supplies it. Moses did NOT live under grace!

[dwashbur]

Hebrews 8:7 I didn't say it the writer of Hebrews did! For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, "behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah Not according to the covenant I made with their fathers in the days when I took them by the had to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord! He didn't goof! He knew exactly what he was doing! The Law is perfect and righteous it just had no ability to make ME perfect and righteous! All it could do for me, is condemn me. Therefore, Jesus fulfilled the law, became my perfect sacrifice and made me righteous apart from the law... it's called GRACE! This is Christianity 101... I so don't understand what it is you believe! The law demands righteousness and grace supplies it. Moses did NOT live under grace!

1Co 10:1	For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
	1Co 10:2	They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
	1Co 10:3	They all ate the same spiritual food
	1Co 10:4	and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

"That rock was Christ." Moses followed Christ even though he didn't know it. Grace has been the theme throughout human history, and that includes Moses.

"This is Christianity 101" No, this is dispensationalism 101. The two are anything but synonymous. Moses was saved by Grace through faith (Eph 2:8) just like everyone else who ever was saved, because that faith is in CHRIST. Even in the Old Testament. There is no separate "age of grace" as the dispensationalists say. All of human history is the "age of grace."

[classyT]

Wow! Dave you don't understand GRACE at all nor what Jesus has done for us. Listen, I know that it was Jesus who saved everyone from Adam until now, but you are wrong about them being under grace. They were CLEARLY under the law, when the Lord dealt with them, they were dealt with under the law! Wow! You can't see that? Every now and again he would extend mercy, like with David. These dear people who lived during the law, had to keep the law in order to please God. The law DEMANDED righteousness, Grace supplies it. They did NOT live under grace. And I bet ol Moses would smack you for saying he did! Lol While we are in total agreement about how God saved these people, he dealt with them way different than he does me. If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature, old things are passed away behold all things are become new. And you want me to believe Moses got to live as a new creation? No he didn't. The Holy Spirit didn't take up residence in him. We on this side of the cross have a much better covenant! God DID impute sin to them in the way he dealt with them. There WERE curses that visited the children and their children, and their children's children! I can't believe we haven't discussed this before. I am a little taken back that you don't know what Christ did for you. He changed everything but it means nothing if you don't know what he died to give you.

When we discussed Jesus separating the sheep from the goats, and I asked you how many times do you have to bring someone water, visit them in jail, be kind to them... ect in order to have everlasting life, you stated you didn't know. How do you reconcile the book of Romans with Jesus' teaching? For grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourself, it is a gift from God lest any man should boast? What do you do with these 2 clearly different ideas. Are you more inclined to follow the Lord Jesus words in the gospel? Or do you see these thoughts as somehow complimenting each other? I don't how but if you could explain so I could understand that would be great.

I've known you for how many years and I never knew exactly what you believed. I can see now why we argue all the time. Lol

[classyT]

Dave,

No answer? Come on! You have to have one...

[dwashbur]

Dave,

No answer? Come on! You have to have one...

We took a mini-vacation over the weekend. But really, there's no much to say, because there's nothing of substance there to respond to. It's all empty speculation with no scriptural backing at all. You really can't see how you pervert the Bible by tossing your theology in there first and wresting the Scriptures to fit your theology. That's more than a little backward, in case you hadn't noticed.

And really, there's not much more we can talk about, and here's the reason:

"I never knew people believed some of the things they believe. I thought all Christians believed in different dispensations."

This is the most naïve statement I have ever seen from a seasoned Christian. Guess what? You are the minority. The vast majority of Christianity doesn't buy dispensationalism. That includes virtually all Protestant denominations, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, and a host of others. You know NOTHING about the global Christian church. Hence, you are horribly unqualified to try and teach anybody anything about the Church. Go get some education about Christianity outside that little bubble of isolation that you live in, and find out what's going on in the Christian world. Then we can discuss this.

That one statement explains pretty much all of your narrow-mindedness. It's not so much narrow-mindedness as it is ignorance. Happily, the solution is easy: just learn about the rest of your Christian brethren and sistren.

[ma0641]

Classy T quote "I never knew people believed some of the things they believe"..... "What do you do with these 2 clearly different ideas.". Well, the Bible is full of them:

Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."
James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

James 1:13 "Let no man say.. . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."


Deuteronomy 6:4 "The Lord our God is one Lord."
Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image."


Isaiah 2:4 ".. . And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Joel 3:9-10 "Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong."

[classyT]

Ma0641,

I disagree. It would appear there are contradictions but if the word is rightly divided, ( put in context, know who it is written TO, know what covenant it is under, the bible does NOT contradict itself. That is the reason the apostle Paul specifically said to rightly DIVIDE the word of God.

Dave,

Why won't you answer me? Do you NOT have an answer? I find that hard to believe, I'm asking sincerely, I really want to know and not so I can argue either. I'm curious. Let me ask one more time. What do you do with the book of Romans when you are reading what Jesus said about the sheep and the goats. Are we saved by grace, or do you need to work?

[dwashbur]

Ma0641,

I disagree. It would appear there are contradictions but if the word is rightly divided, ( put in context, know who it is written TO, know what covenant it is under, the bible does NOT contradict itself. That is the reason the apostle Paul specifically said to rightly DIVIDE the word of God.

Actually, there are lots of apparent contradictions. 2 Samuel says God stirred up David's heart to number the people, whereas 1 Chronicles says it was Satan. In Genesis 14 we are told that Abraham pursued his enemies as far north as Dan. Except that in Abraham's time the city was called Laish. It wasn't called Dan until the time of the judges. And the list goes on.

Refusing to face and consider these things isn't helpful. It's a cop-out.

Ma0641,
Dave,

Why won't you answer me? Do you NOT have an answer? I find that hard to believe, I'm asking sincerely, I really want to know and not so I can argue either. I'm curious. Let me ask one more time. What do you do with the book of Romans when you are reading what Jesus said about the sheep and the goats. Are we saved by grace, or do you need to work?

I'm not going to answer that question because it's not germane to the discussion about dispensationalism. It's just you trying to dodge the subject again, and I'm not going to play your game. I gave you my reply and told you why. The ball is in your court to explain how you can be a Christian for so long and have no idea the rest of the Christian world exists.

[ma0641]

Ma0641,

I disagree. It would appear there are contradictions but if the word is rightly divided, ( put in context, know who it is written TO, know what covenant it is under, the bible does NOT contradict itself. That is the reason the apostle Paul specifically said to rightly DIVIDE the word of God.

Dave,

Why won't you answer me? Do you NOT have an answer? I find that hard to believe, I'm asking sincerely, I really want to know and not so I can argue either. I'm curious. Let me ask one more time. What do you do with the book of Romans when you are reading what Jesus said about the sheep and the goats. Are we saved by grace, or do you need to work?

You disagree? Why am I not surprised? You disagree with everyone who doesn't accept your "enlightend" assessment. It's either your way or everyone else is wrong.

[Wondergirl]

I looked up what "rightly divided" means. I'd never heard that term so much emphasized until it was used here on this forum. It seems from my Internet research that one has to be in a certain dispensation in order to "rightly divide" the Word. (I guess Moses was out of luck and didn't qualify....) One citation from rightlydividing.org:

http://www.rightlydividing.org/secon...ydividing.html

[classyT]

You disagree? Why am I not surprised? You disagree with everyone who doesn't accept your "enlightend" assessment. It's either your way or everyone else is wrong.

You know, it's OK for me to disagree. I wasn't rude to you and I never once said I was "enlightend". I'm not sure what your problem is, but I hope you feel better now. Geesh

Actually, there are lots of apparent contradictions. 2 Samuel says God stirred up David's heart to number the people, whereas 1 Chronicles says it was Satan. In Genesis 14 we are told that Abraham pursued his enemies as far north as Dan. Except that in Abraham's time the city was called Laish. It wasn't called Dan until the time of the judges. And the list goes on.

Refusing to face and consider these things isn't helpful. It's a cop-out.


Well the scriptures he posted I do not believe they contradict one another if put in the proper context.



I'm not going to answer that question because it's not germane to the discussion about dispensationalism. It's just you trying to dodge the subject again, and I'm not going to play your game. I gave you my reply and told you why. The ball is in your court to explain how you can be a Christian for so long and have no idea the rest of the Christian world exists.

Oh good grief, I am not dodging. I asked you a question and you can't answer it. I've asked you before not here but on FB. I find it very interesting your reluctance. But whatever.

[Wondergirl]

Oh good grief, I am not dodging. I asked you a question and you can't answer it. I've asked you before not here but on FB. I find it very interesting your reluctance. But whatever.

We have to stay on topic. If you want to talk about sheep and goats (and what to feed them?), please start a new thread.

[dwashbur]

We have to stay on topic. If you want to talk about sheep and goats (and what to feed them?), please start a new thread.

Thanks, WG. She doesn't seem to grasp the idea "stay on topic" when I say it. Maybe she can understand it from you.