[Sawbuckle]

I have just been Scammed big time. I responded to a E-Mail soliciting a agent in this country. Basically my duties were to deposit their clients checks in my account, keep 10% as my compensation and Wire the Money to a Bank in Japan. After the money was wired and received by the Japan bank the Clients Check was returned to my bank as NSF and determined to be fraudulent by my bank officials. The bank has frozen my checking account and 401 k's of both myself and my wife. The amount exceeds $50,000.00 and is a lot greater than all the money we have combined. Can the bank keep the IRA's, mine and my wife's? What options do I have? What Can I do.
To make matters worse I handled two checks for these frauds. I have not heard anything aboot the first transaction but my bank officials believe it is also fraudulent and the company it was written on just hasn't discovered it yet. That Check also exceeds $50,000.00. The check that already has bounced alone will almost bankrupt us. All we will have left is a mobile home, we live in , a 2000 chevrolet that are paid for, and SS income. My wife and I are beside ourself. We don't know what to do. Help

[RubyPitbull]

Sawbuckle, AY YI YI! There really isn't much you can do. You need to repay the bank. If you do not, depending on the bank, your relationship with them, and your attitude, the repercussions can run the gamut. The bank can sue you to recoup the monies or they can go all the way to the extreme of having you arrested and charged with fraud.

The government has no idea where to even start looking for these people, much less try to prosecute a foreigner. You are stuck. You need to cooperate with the bank and the authorities.

What you have described is one of the biggest scams currently going. The scam artists are getting more and more slick with their shell game. Good rule of thumb to live by -- if someone you don't know is willing to give you money for basically doing nothing, it is a scam.

You seem to be on the higher end of the scam scale here. Most people do not lose this kind of money. I am sorry that you were not more diligent in checking this out prior to agreeing to this.

[Fr_Chuck]

Yes you will have to repay the bank, what did you do with 50,000 dollars, did you buy the mobile home or car?

But this is one of the most well known scams out there, it was even featured on Oprah yesterday. One has to ask, why? First of course banks are international, so there is no need for someone to accept checks here in the US a check from anywhere in the world can be deposited in a bank anywhere in the world. And even if they wanted a US company to do it, there are account recievable companies that do it for 2 percent or less.

Also they emailed you? Come one did not some flag raise about that, next they did not ask for you to be bonded. You were actually fairly lucky what normally happens is also before these checks bounce, they electrionicly take all the money you have in that account out. So if they ever unfreeze your account close it, since the bad guys will have all of your account info. Also if you gave them your social security number, contact the credit reporting agencies about possible ID threft.

But if you don't pay the banks back, they can press criinal charges against you for fraud,

Normally they send checks of 5000 or less, since those require less approval to cash, so I would say they sent several checks over a longer period.

So I hope you have enough in your IRA to pay this back, if not, you will be making payments to them for a long time.

[Capuchin]

If you are interested in not being caught out again, read this: Advance fee fraud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And the linked pages at the bottom of the page.

I'm so sorry you got caught up in this. These are hugely widespread and I'd be surprised if anyone who uses e-mail regularly hasn't received one of these e-mails.

There is very little you can do, the formula is perfected and now there are many different takes on them.

I wish you the best of luck to the future, and I hope the page I have linked to helps you to at least understand the fraudsters.

[slowandeasy]

I am so sorry you got scammed, 50,000 is a lot of money! This very scam was covered
In our local newspaper not to long ago, an elderly couple who had received a computer from their grandchildren a year ago at christmas and had learned how to do e mails and such. They thought this email was something legal and it cost them big time! The newspaper reported that the bank was working with them.It is a shame that this world has so many evil people in it I wish you luck in getting this mess straightend out You may need to talk to an attorney

[excon]

Hello Saw:

Sorry about that. Your money's gone! Scammers succeed by plying on their victims greed. You really thought you were going to get something for nothing. Things don't happen that way in the real world.

excon

PS> I don't think the bank is going to take kindly to the other check bouncing too. I would see a CRIMINAL attorney.

[Fr_Chuck]

It is greed but it is also so much people just being trusting also. For the past four years I was working in the medical field dealing with disabled and senior citizens. You just would not believe the information they would give me over the phone and when I was in their house, so many of them did not want to take the time for me to explain the paperwork ( I would require them to at least let me sum up what each page said) but most would just be willing to sign 14 pages of paperwork without having any idea what the paperwork said. Had I been a con man there is no telling what I could have gotten by with

But which of any of us don't see those adds and dream a little what if,

Yes excon that was one issue none of us addressed was all the checks out there that the customer had written that bounced, they will have to deal with each person who they wrote that check to, many having additional fees and each of them can threaten to press charges also.

Makes a person slightly worried to do any business over the internet.

[missk]

Some of the members at the credit union where I worked were scammed and when the checks returned we had to get the fed involved. It is a federal issue. The bank should be able to work with you and they need to contact the fed. You need to file a police report. Make copies for yourself and for the bank. Just curious-were you apprehensive about this?

Which one? Did the check return as NSF or FRAUDULENT? That can make a difference.

I am just remembering something else-you need to contact the 3 major credit bereaus:Trans Union, Equifax, and Experian. Some people think that it is only for identity theft, but not true. They need to be aware of any kind of fraud especially since this has to do with your bank accounts. Ask them to send something to you in writing showing that you filed a complaint and send the copies to the police and the bank. The police should be able assist you in filing a report with the fed.

[TxSky]

I have just been Scammed big time. I responded to a E-Mail soliciting a agent in this country. Basically my duties were to deposit their clients checks in my account, keep 10% as my compensation and Wire the Money to a Bank in Japan. After the money was wired and received by the Japan bank the Clients Check was returned to my bank as NSF and determined to be fraudulent by my bank officials. The bank has frozen my checking account and 401 k's of both myself and my wife. The amount exceeds $50,000.00 and is a lot greater than all the money we have combined. Can the bank keep the IRA's, mine and my wifes? What options do I have? What Can I do.
To make matters worse I handled two checks for these frauds. I have not heard anything aboot the first transaction but my bank officials believe it is also fraudulent and the company it was written on just hasnt discovered it yet. That Check also exceeds $50,000.00. The check that already has bounced alone will almost bankrupt us. All we will have left is a mobile home, we live in , a 2000 chevrolet that are paid for, and SS income. My wife and I are beside ourself. We dont know what to do. Help

Nothing.
What you were actually trying to do was illegal to begin with.
However, you should report it.

[excon]

What you were actually trying to do was illegal to begin with.

Hello again, Tx:

No wonder I've been in jail so many times. I haven't had you around to tell me the law. Again, if you're going to continue to cite the law, you'll have to tell us what particular law you're talking about.

Assuming the checks were good, what is illegal about depositing the money, keeping some and sending out the rest as per instructions?? I really want to know.

excon

[TxSky]

Hello again, Tx:

No wonder I've been in jail so many times. I haven't had you around to tell me the law. Again, if you're going to continue to cite the law, you'll have to tell us what particular law you're talking about.

Assuming the checks were good, what is illegal about depositing the money, keeping some and sending out the rest as per instructions????? I really want to know.

excon

You get a letter from someone saying they cannot legally bring money into this country, so they want to run it through your bank account and they'll pay you to make their dirty money look clean and you ask me about the law?

Do the words "money laundering" mean anything to you?

You're right, no wonder you've been in jail so many times.

Per the occ.treas.gov website - Money laundering is the criminal practice of filtering ill-gotten gains or "dirty" money through a series of transactions, so that the funds are "cleaned" to look like proceeds from legal activities. Money laundering is driven by criminal activities and conceals the true source, ownership, or use of funds. The International Monetary Fund has stated that the aggregate size of money laundering in the world could be somewhere between 2 and 5 percent of the world's gross domestic product.

Money laundering is a diverse and often complex process that need not involve cash transactions. Money laundering basically involves three independent steps that can occur simultaneously:

Placement - placing, through deposits or other means, unlawful proceeds into the financial system.

Layering - separating proceeds of criminal activitiy from their origin through the use of layers of complex financial transactions.

Integration - using additional transactions to create the appearance of legality through the purchase of assets.

For exact law: The Bank Secrecy Act (Currency and Foreign Transactions Reporting At of 1970); The Money Laundering Control Act of 1986; the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1988; Section 2532 of the Crime Control Act of 1990; Section 206 of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation Improvemetn Act of 1991; The Annunzio-Wylie Anti-Money Laundering Act (Title XV of the Housing and Community Development Act of 1992); the Money Laundering Suppression Act of 1994 (Title IV of the Riegle-Neal Community Development and Regulatory Improvement Act of 1994); the Money Laundering and Financial Crimes Strategy Act of 1998, and the USA Patriot Act (Title III, International Money Laundering Abatement and Anti-Terrorist Financing Act of 2001).

[Fr_Chuck]

Actually this would not be as bad if it was really money laundering, but in money laundering the checks would be real, normally made out to a 2nd party. But these are just fake checks, fruad, the people cash them, in their bank accounts, and send 90 percent back in a wire transfer, then when the check banks, they owe the bank back the entire check amount, and of course they already sent the 90 percent somewhere else.

Many of today's money laundering is done in money market or insurance accounts where they send the money in wire transfers so they can latter get a check ( the opposite of what is happening here)

[excon]

You get a letter from someone saying they cannot legally bring money into this country.... Do the words "money laundering" mean anything to you?

Hello again, Tx:

I don't know what's gotten into you, "sweetie", but not only do you not know the law, you can't read either. Your advice isn't going to be welcome here if you base it on your ability to read.. Nobody got a letter saying anything remotely close to what you think it said - not even close.

Money laundering has as much to do with this case as the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act has to do with the bank fraud you were wrong about earlier.

Give it a rest.

excon

[Fr_Chuck]

Yes, while money laundering is a seroius problem, the estimates is that about 5 percent of the US economy is based on money laundering.

But to be money laundering, they would have to send real money in, it would come in either as a 2 party check, or normally as a wire transfer.
So instead you the person sending a wire transfer, what they want in a money laundering situation is a real bank or company check sent to them, not another wire transfer, so they have clean money.

In these cases these are well known ( very well known) scams, where fake checks are sent, and the crooks are getting you to send money to them, and they are not sending any real money to you. So you end up owing all this money back to the bank, when the check they gave you bounces or comes back nomrally as a fruad.



** I finished a money laundering course yesterday.

[Emland]

I am so sorry this happened to you, but I have to say I am surprised you went for it.

I heard about this scam over 15 years ago and get one of those BS solicitations every week via e-mail from everyone from the Prime Minister of Nigeria to the royal Japanese family.

What is really odd is that you were able to transfer funds before the checks cleared. My bank sits on any large check (higher that my average daily balance) until the thing clears and I don't have access to it. If your bank had that practice all you would have been out would have been the fee for depositing a check that was NSF.

Again, I am so sorry. I wish you the best.

[missk]

I just want to make a comment about what you said Emland. Please by all means I don't want to start an argument-I just want you to be aware of this as I worked at a bank in check collections and it is frustrating for the customers as I think people need to be better educated on check issues. I probably wouldn't have been aware of this if I had not worked at a bank. When you deposit a check into your bank they may put a hold on it in hopes that it will clear by the time the hold is released, but you need to understand that your bank doesn't actually know that the check cleared and you need to be aware that a check can come back anytime after the hold is released and you will be responsible for the funds. The only sure way for a check to clear is to go to the bank that it was drawn from and cash it.

[Emland]

When you deposit a check into your bank they may put a hold on it in hopes that it will clear by the time the hold is released, but you need to understand that your bank doesn't actually know that the check cleared and you need to be aware that a check can come back anytime after the hold is released and you will be responsible for the funds.

In the days of old when stuff had to be manually handled and mailed, etc. I could see how this kind of scam could happen. What I don't understand in our days of instant access via computer is why banks let this happen. Why don't they verify funds of this magnitude before releasing it? This OP doesn't sound like he kept a daily average balance of 50k and this was clearly unusual behavior for him. His bank should have said something - made a phone call - sent an email verifying funds. This scam is as old as I am, if not older, and every bank employee has had to have heard of it.

I worked for a major credit card issuer and they are completely aware of all the scams and ripoffs going on within their industry. I asked my trainer/supervisor point blank "why don't you make people prove their identity before accepting the application?" (by notary or sending ID, etc) Her response was that it made it more difficult for people to get their cards therefore losing the company money. Although the cardholder of a fradulent transaction isn't responsible for the charges, the merchant that accepted the card is and has to "eat" whatever item was used (meaning he never gets paid for it) and still pays the cc company the transaction fees. I quit working for that company because it just irritates me that they have no interest in protecting their own customers.

Sorry this is so lengthy, but the point I am trying to make is that the large industries like banks and credit card issuers know full well that people are being conned and used and they could take simple steps to curtail the activity, but since they make money off it, why should they?

Yes, the OP made a foolish and perhaps greedy mistake but his savings and future well being could have been saved with one phone call "Hello? Yes, I would like to verify funds on account xxx-1234."

I'll stop ranting now.

[ScottGem]

First, to TxSky. Listen to what you are being told. Its one thing to be able to find statues, it's a totally other thing to understand how they apply. You keep citing laws that don't apply to the situations. We appreciate your wanting to help, but we pride ourselves on the accuracy of the advice given here. And people who give incorrect answers are not appreciated.

Do you really think that Saw got an e-mail that said, I'd like your help in a money laundering scheme? Have you ever actually read the text of these scam offers? No where do they mention that they can't legally bring money in.

I find it interesting that you have no compunction in accusing Saw of intentionally breaking the law, but complain when I tell someone they made a bad financial decision.

To MissK and Emland.
The US banking system is very efficient. Since all these money transfers are handled electronically, it rarely takes more than 7 business days for a domestic check to clear. However, that's not true of international transactions. Some countries are as efficient as the US and checks will clear quickly. Others will require much longer and the bank may release the money before the fraud is discovered.

[NeedKarma]

Assuming the checks were good, what is illegal about depositing the money, keeping some and sending out the rest as per instructions????? I really want to know.

If it sounds too good to be true usually it isn't. There is no free money. Due diligence and all (doing business with an anonymous person?)

[missk]

I agree with you Emland. When I worked at the bank-because we were having so many return checks we decided that anything over $2000.00 needed to be looked at by a supervisor or someone that handled the return checks. We would look at the check and the account's reputation and funds (what was coming in and going out) before deciding whether to put a hold on the check or not taking it at all. The problem with verifying checks is many banks were under the impression that they could not give this information because of the privacy law. That is just simply not true. If a bank wants to call (or anyone for that matter) to verify funds they should be able to do so, but a lot of banks were misunderstood about the privacy law. Anyway, even if you call to verify a check, it doesn't mean that it will clear by the time it gets to the bank. So if a bank sees something fishy then they should either not accept the check or put it on hold for a longer time even though it can still come back anytime and the account holder is responsible. You are right though, the tellers need to have proper training to be aware, but account holders are the ones that really need to know what they are doing-they need to protect themselves too.