[CravenMorhead]

It's quite apparent that none of you actually KNOW someone who has gender identity issues.

.......
It isn't only about what's "between your legs" but what makes you feel comfortable in your own skin.

I read these posts and can fully understand the increasing suicide rates.

True. A wee bit harsh, but true none the less.

It is up to us as a society to make EVERYONE feel comfortable and comfortable being who they are. Not surprisingly we're doing a piss poor job of it. It is something new, and makes us less comfortable because it is not the normal. There is more of an open dialogue now then has been in so many years, but it is still something that can be hard to accept because it is different.

[smoothy]

I have no desire to take pictures of naked ladies. Why does having a penis and dressing in girls cloths make you suspect to that kind of behavior?

Just because you might not... there are plenty of other men that do... and would use that as a means to do what they do... that's the point that's being ignored. Who can possibly guarantee every man in a dress in the women's bathroom actually has gender Identity issues... and isn't a perv that sees wearing a dress as a way to get to what they are after.

Right now... any guy in there... dressed as a woman or not will have authorities to answer to. What a certain group is advocating and arguing for.. it to let ANYONE that wants to in... never mind 8 - 10 year old girls might be in there... and nobody could say otherwise... who's going to accept responsibility for not only the first time that happens.. but every time after that.

That is exactly like Pandora's box.

And don't the parents of every child that might need to use that rest room have the right to know their children will be reasonably safe or will they have to accompany them until they turn 18.


Because not only people like you will be there... the pervs that think nothing of slapping on a dress to get those cameras in to pear under the stalls etc... will have a free pass to do it.

You could not differentiate one from the other... and not all men with Gender identity issues would be saints either... no doubt many would, but you are going to have those that aren't.

Personally... if it floats your boat... I don't care if you dress like a girl... if its gender identity issues or you don't and it's a fetish...

But men need to be in mens rooms, and women in women's rooms. You either have guy parts or girl parts. That's the determining factor for restroom use. How did everyone manage until now... nobody can say they didn't go the bathroom. I know precious few parents that would stand for free for all rest rooms.

A Chinese person can't claim to be a black person just because they feel like they identify with them more. Nobody cares if they dress and talk like someone in the hood. But when it comes down to government forms and applications when it asks... you are what you are... not what you feel like.

And sorry... but nobody has the right to demand everyone else bends over backwards to see things THEIR way.. if they aren't going to bend over backwards to do what someone else says.

Be it political, religious, or pretty much everything else.

I'm not going to accept Kwanzaa is a real holiday and I'm not going to celebrate it just because someone says I have to for example. And incidentally, the more someone demands you think a certain way... the less accepting those people forced to are willing to be.

Funny thing... the people that try to threaten and intimidate others to do things THEIR way... are usually the same people that get the most upset when anyone does it to them. Because this is exactly what Bullies do... and I know there are people doing this now that have also been on the issue about people doing far less to "Bully" their kids.

I still like them on a personal level... but nobody has the right to impose their beliefs onto others... and thinking they can shame them only prove the point... that's what bullies do. Maybe if they sit back and give some thought to someone trying to impose their beliefs on them... such as the Islamic tradition in much of the world.. to force their 10 year old daughters to marry 50 year old men... after all... there are large segments that find that acceptable... why would that be wrong while their own ideas not be. Or arranged marriages in general where no choice is allowed.

What if people demanded the right to wear thongs in public? What about women going bare breasted everywhere ( I can hear a lot of guys being fine with this) just because guys do... just examples that came to mind...

I'm not naming names or pointing fingers because I have no personal issues with anyone on this thread... and I do mean everyone, the old timers as well as the new people... only pointing out something to ponder.

[Wondergirl]

You live in a very scary world, smoothy.

[smoothy]

You live in a very scary world, smoothy.

I live in a world were MOST people are even more conservative about things than I am... and my world isn't a minority subset of any other.

And not even my uber Liberal neighbors think differently on this...in fact..they are less accepting than I am, yes we actually had a discussion a couple months ago over a couple bottles of wine that went there....and I am far from being intolerant.

I'm the last person anyone bullies into anything....the more someone tries to force me to do anything...the harder I push back. I didn't suffer being bullied in high school and I don't suffer it as an adult.

The last bully that tried to see how far I would go..was in high school....and he spent time in intensive care....despite being far larger and stronger than me....because I didn't hold anything back. Scary place to find yourself because I didn't stop....I was pulled off of him by three adult male neighbors.....luckily nobody has ever tried that again, and I hope nobody ever does.

Everyone has a sore spot...a raw nerve....that's mine.

Edit: I want to point something out the Ladies here might not be aware of....pertaining to WHY there are some guys that DON'T have gender issues might wear a dress to get into a womens bathroom of all places.

There is actually an entire category of porn that deals with filming women using the toilet without their knowledge. And you hear about people being arrested for it on the news from time to time. Nobody is claiming people with gender issues do it or are doing it or ever did it...but it opens a barrier to those that do.

They could sit a purse or anything down near the bottom of the barrier and you would never see the pinhole camera inside recording

[catonsville]

Did, you see where South Dakota Governor vetoed bill on the gender bill that would have protected the privacy of students in gym, bath rooms etc. Hope they over ride it.
ACLU is all in for the veto, no surprise, they lack a moral compass.

[J_9]

Smoothly, stop with the bathroom argument already. That is NOT what gender identity crisis is about. You continue to focus on the 1% of people who are using this as an excuse to satisfy their perversions. That's NOT what gender identity crisis is about.

Unless, or until, you've sat down and cried with a family member because they are being bullied because they were born with a vagina, but would rather rebuild a transmission than go shopping with the girls, you truly cannot relate on a personal level to this issue.

Gender identity crisis is is has NOTHING to do with sexual perversions, or even homosexuality.

[smoothy]

Smoothly, stop with the bathroom argument already. That is NOT what gender identity crisis is about. You continue to focus on the 1% of people who are using this as an excuse to satisfy their perversions. That's NOT what gender identity crisis is about.

Unless, or until, you've sat down and cried with a family member because they are being bullied because they were born with a vagina, but would rather rebuild a transmission than go shopping with the girls, you truly cannot relate on a personal level to this issue.

Gender identity crisis is is has NOTHING to do with sexual perversions, or even homosexuality.

THere is a greater percentage willing to go that route WITHOUT having gender identity issues than there are people that feel the need to force everyone else to bend over backwards to cater to their demands... no matter how much it goes against their moral codes to do it.

And apparently nobody that is trying to ram this down everyone's throats has even listened to a word I said.. or have but are willing to subject their own children grandchildren and neighbors children to these people... because its going to happen. And its going to be on their their backs when it happens.

Most cross dressing men are straight... and have no interest in gender reassignment surgery. Studies have shown that... and that topic has been discussed a number of time in another forum...

Exactly how would you plan to differentiate between them? Fact is you can't. SO how would you know if that guy in women's garb... is a cross dresser, has legitimate gender identity issues, or is simply a perv willing to go that extra distance?

It's a serious question because while one might pose no risk... one other might or might not... while the other certainly does.

You like the others are avoiding answering that specific point...

ANd tell you what... I like a lot of people start giving someone or a specific group a benefit of the doubt... until we have reason otherwise... this sort of stuff is proving its yet another group that thinks they have special rights that excede the rights of the general public.

Namely women are being told... tough.. you no longer have any right to privacy in restrooms anywhere ( and soon after locker rooms etc) because people that are currently NOT female in gender have a greater right to violate their privacy.

Once they have gone that last step and had the reasignment surgery... ok, fine... no issues. THe issue is while they are not.

THis has ZERO to do with sympathy for them... or accepting them... but one persons rights END where the next persons starts.

Nobody is advocating lynching them... or bullying them. All the bullying taking place here is by those trying to force everyone else into accepting people that are physically still men into female restrooms. And the insistence by certain parties that EVERYONE that doesn't feel exactly how they do.. is wrong and should be belittled for it...

You know I like and respect you... however MY moral code is not somehow inferior to anyone else's here. And I do take offense myself that it is even being suggested by anyone.

How about we belittle anyone that believes the age of consent should be 18. Its significantly lower in much of Europe... so people that think that's wrong should be heckled and belittled. Plenty of other examples could be given. Kids can drink in Europe UNDER the age of 18... maybe its grossly unfair they are legally adults.. could be drafted, are allowed to join the Army go off to fight, get crippled or die... but can't buy a beer. Maybe we should heckle those who believe the 21 year old drink age is the right thing?

That's another example... but I do not support, have sympathy or accept anyone that's going to be DEMANDING I have no right to my own thoughts, beliefs and free will. Because they don't have greater rights than the rest of the public.

Now again... I don't care if they cross dress or even go through their life as the opposite gender... at this point... I'm not advocating or supporting groups or individuals the might single them out for abuse or violent actions...

And I can speak for my wife on this, because she just commented on it asking what I was writing... who doesn't want anyone in the women's room who is not physically female with female body parts while she is. And so does every female OUTSIDE this forum and discussion I have any knowledge of.

And again... read what I wrote... allowing ANYONE willing to throw on women's clothes into women's restrooms and locker rooms is going to cause a LOT of problems... and its not IF but when... because its impossible to differentiate one subset from the next. And what about the rights of every OTHER women and girl out there?

I'm not picking on that group... and neither is anyone else here... but NO group is somehow better and has any right to IMPOSE their will upon others by any means. And that's exactly what yet another group is trying to do.

Who is going to pay for these separate restrooms? Someone ELSE? Who will reimburse the businesses for the upkeep and loss of revenue generating space? Commercial real-estate in much of the country is very expensive, is someone else expected to foot that cost... how many people should lose their jobs to offset the expense for something that's going to have only occasional use.

Its easy to make demands... but the people making they aren't willing to bear the costs of it. And people are getting irritated by this special interest group, or that one... or another... that gets special treatment they are expected to pay ever more for.

I'm ticket off that this year I will be paying $2,500 MORE in property taxes just to fund the education of illegals in my county that aren't paying ANY of them... because 28% of the kids enrolled on our district are illegals.

The more someone demands I do something or think a certain way and insults my intelligence and even insinuates I am ignorant or less than human because I don't bend over to yet another group... well I will see that group ever more in a less favorable light as a result.

Again... this is nothing personal... against you or anyone else participating in this thread... but nobody that isn't paying my bills or supporting me... is going to tell me how to think. I still have freedom of speech... and as yet... the thought police don't exist... and the day they do... is the day I pack my bags, sell my property and transfer all my money to another country where it doesn't and move there. I was born in the USA... not the Old East Germany. I value my right to my own opinion... and my right to free speech.

Something I'm pretty sure the rest do as well.

I'm not the one bullying them... it's the converse that is actually the case here. And I don't suffer being bullied. There is no website... or person alive worth allowing it.

I know bullies... I know what its like to be bullied... And I know it when I see it. I also know in today's PC run amok environment... pity the poor kid that ever stands up to one.. because they will get in the same trouble as the bully does. Today I would have been expelled from school for standing up to bullies... and not graduated and continued through college. And yeah... it did stop long before the end of my senior year, and not only that... I got respect from them... It might have been the hard way... but I got it, and we aren't talking One, two or three....I'm talking 11 different ones....and I earned it from every one of them but one....and he's dead now anyway....idiot attempted armed robbery the summer I graduated and was shot to death by his intended victim. In my entire life... I have not bullied anyone. I actually feel a kinship with those who were bullied...

And what was being talked about in this discussion really has nothing to do with it.

[3p0L0v3sU]

Cantonsville, smoothy ,I think we're never going to agree. Let me just say this. When your trans you can be raped, murdered, or discriminated against if people find out. Some girls (and guys, I'm just saying girls because of my own experience. I don't know a lot about the trans man community) spend their whole lives trying to hide what they were born with, not because they are diluted, but because they can't be safe otherwise. You said you had no problem with people crossdressing correct? No problem with men wanting too look or act like women? Well, If a crossdresser is in public and can't use the ladies room, they may have to go into the mens room while still in drag. Then everyone there would know that they aren't normal, even if they look completely like a woman other wise, and they could die because of that. So, as stated earlier, we don't live in a perfect world where there are no rapists, or perverts, or murderers. If you deny a trans person the opportunity to use the other genders bathroom, then they will either A: not be able to be dressed in public, (which is kind of why a lot of trans people commit suicide. Because they have to hide their real self.) or B: risk being raped. Lets stop talking about the validity of being gender queer now. That is not what this thread is about. Its about "why might someone feel they are not the gender they were born with?" you two haven't answered that question, all you have done is refuted the validity of that feeling. Although I'm mad at both of you, I know you are just people and still deserve my respect and the right to speech, just please shut up. Go start another thread about the validity of gender identity if you must. I will even take note to stay far away from it, so you all do not feel I am trying to silence or harass you, because lets face it, we will never agree.

[J_9]

When you are ready to talk about the question at hand, I'll be back.

The OP never asked why it's okay for a man to use a woman's bathroom or visa versa. The OP asked why some people aren't content with the gender they were born with.

Again, when you are ready to discuss the actual question posted, I'll be back. Until then I'm not going to feed your hatred.

[talaniman]

Over the past few years, decades even, we have seen people coming out of the closet and being very open about their own sexual identity, and being more accepted by the society as a whole. Why is it so hard to wrap our heads around the fact that there are people out there who want to rectify their gender identity as well? Minority groups have a history of being misunderstood, discriminated against, bullied, enslaved and killed since the dawn of man, and sadly gender identity will be no different.

Wonder what's next?

[smoothy]

Cantonsville, smoothy ,I think we're never going to agree. Let me just say this. When your trans you can be raped, murdered, or discriminated against if people find out. Some girls (and guys, I'm just saying girls because of my own experience. I don't know a lot about the trans man community) spend their whole lives trying to hide what they were born with, not because they are diluted, but because they can't be safe otherwise. You said you had no problem with people crossdressing correct? No problem with men wanting too look or act like women? Well, If a crossdresser is in public and can't use the ladies room, they may have to go into the mens room while still in drag. Then everyone there would know that they aren't normal, even if they look completely like a woman other wise, and they could die because of that. So, as stated earlier, we don't live in a perfect world where there are no rapists, or perverts, or murderers. If you deny a trans person the opportunity to use the other genders bathroom, then they will either A: not be able to be dressed in public, (which is kind of why a lot of trans people commit suicide. Because they have to hide their real self.) or B: risk being raped. Lets stop talking about the validity of being gender queer now. That is not what this thread is about. Its about "why might someone feel they are not the gender they were born with?" you two haven't answered that question, all you have done is refuted the validity of that feeling. Although I'm mad at both of you, I know you are just people and still deserve my respect and the right to speech, just please shut up. Go start another thread about the validity of gender identity if you must. I will even take note to stay far away from it, so you all do not feel I am trying to silence or harass you, because lets face it, we will never agree.

Please don't take what I said as me having any dislike for you or anything. Lets just say I've already had my fill of other groups making their demands and I wasn't happy with those either. And see here.. this is the key point... Most of those groups assumes their rights are greater than others. I have not told you to shut up and I'm not going to... and I won't be told to shut up either.

INSISTING there is only one right way to see this... YOUR way and saying everyone else is wrong... well Isn't going to make anyone any more receptive to your plight. In fact... it is counter productive. They end up less receptive and less sympathetic. That's something to consider, Its not what you are selling... its how you are selling it.

[3p0L0v3sU]

"INSISTING there is only one right way to see this... YOUR way and saying everyone else is wrong." you do make a good point, in the beginning I was doing that, trying to persuade you, but now all I'm saying is we both are being very stubborn and will never reach an agreement so lets stop talking about it, because the valitdy of being genderqueer is not what this disscution is about. I'm new to the sight I do not know how to properly quote your text

[smoothy]

An important point you mentioned I never addressed. Anybody that gets suicidal thoughts should be seeking professional help immediately. Expecting other people to tiptoe around their triggers doesn't help them (whatever they might be..). And actually ends up allowing them to get worse. If you aren't happy with yourself...nothing anyone else does is going to change that.

[3p0L0v3sU]

Trans people do and should seek psychological help! Using the potty isn't abot asking people to "tip toe around peoples triggers" it is about pooping! Arrrrrrrggghhhgghghgghgghghhhhh. Good bye thread

[Wondergirl]

An interesting real-life case is that of Chaz Bono, formerly Chastity Bono (Sonny and Cher's daughter). I tried to watch every interview Chaz gave as he explained his gender identity struggles. I had no clue what was going on and really learned a lot. Please read his book or at least watch the interviews that are on YouTube such as "Gender is between your ears, not between your legs" https://search.yahoo.com/search?p=ch...e=orcl_default

[smoothy]

Trans people do and should seek psychological help! Using the potty isn't abot asking people to "tip toe around peoples triggers" it is about pooping! Arrrrrrrggghhhgghghgghgghghhhhh. Good bye thread

Actually it is. That's exactly what is being demanded of everyone else. No matter what anyone tries to call it... that's exactly what it is.

[Wondergirl]

Actually it is. That's exactly what is being demanded of everyone else. No matter what anyone tries to call it... that's exactly what it is.

What do you suggest they do?

[smoothy]

An interesting real-life case is that of Chaz Bono, formerly Chastity Bono (Sonny and Cher's daughter). I tried to watch every interview Chaz gave as he explained his gender identity struggles. I had no clue what was going on and really learned a lot. Please read his book or at least watch the interviews that are on YouTube such as "Gender is between your ears, not between your legs" https://search.yahoo.com/search?p=ch...e=orcl_default

And age is just a matter of how old you feel, but that argument doesn't work when an immature 18 year old is caught in bed with his mature for her age 15 year old girlfriend... I know where its common, legal and accepted for 16 year old girls to be chasing after MUCH older men..an example late 20's. With their parents permission. And its a catholic country thats not part of the third world. Its just not here.

Just because someone feels like they are Gaelic doesn't make them Gaelic... if their entire ancestry is Maori.

Chaz made the big jump... she had the surgery, I'd consider her male now... based on having external boy bits... Until Bruce Jenner makes that final leap... he's not a woman. Men have penises and women have vaginas... actual functionality of the organs as nature intended is beside the point. Clothes can be changed in minutes. The complete surgery is a permanent decision.

[Wondergirl]

So it's only the visible external secondary sex characteristics that should matter? If he has a penis, he's male, no matter what his hormones tell him.

[Cat1864]

Since this thread has traveled so far away from the original question, I am closing it.

If you wish to continue the Discussion, please start a new thread on the proper board.