[cnrhome]

Hello,

I'm having some trouble with my well pump. Over the last few weeks we've noticed the pressure has been waning. This is a common occurrence when I have to change my sediment filters, but today while the shower was running the water stopped completely.

Pump is Goulds 7GS05422C, 1/2 hp, 230V, 2W, 10STG 4" pump, installed new on 8/2008
Franklin Submersible Motor Control, 1/2 hp, 4.8 Amp, Date C89
Pump switch is 40/60 lbs, with Duracell DP-42-2 blue diaphragm pressure tank. Approx 20g.

The pump usually fills the tank and pressurizes it from 40-60 very quick - under 1 min. Checking it this morning the pressure rises very VERY SLOW! Even shutting off the pressure tank the pressure doesn't immediately max out and shut off as it should. I can hear some slow water flow in the tank, and when I turn off the power, the noise stops, so the pump is doing something. However - the REALLY odd thing is that when I remove the cover for the Motor Control (which disconnects the capacitor and I though disabled the pump) I STILL hear the noise! So the pump is still pumping very slowly without power? I used to hear the capacitor click in when the pump came on, but now I do not.

Also a few days ago my pump area has a puddle on the floor. There are no obvious leaks and I hadn't gotten to look at it yet. This area frequently has wet spots due to high humidity and condensation, but this was more water than that.

Any ideas what it could be? I can DIY just about anything, I just have to know what is wrong.

Thanks

CJ

[hkstroud]

I used to hear the capacitor click in

You can't be hearing the capacitor It is an electronic device and has no moving parts. Do you mean switch?

pressurizes it from 40-60 very quick - under 1 min.

That is a very short cycle even for the little tank you have.

A 20 gallon tank should have approximately 5 gallons at 20 lbs and 15 at 60 lbs.
If your pump pumps 5 gallons per minute that would take 2 minutes. Have you check to see if you have a water logged tank (ruptured bladder).

Do you know how to check for water logged tank?

Do you have a check valve on the well line?

[cnrhome]

Well, when my pump went bad 7 yrs ago, I heard something by the Pump Control box as it was trying to start the pump. It wasn't the pressure cutoff switch on the water line. It hummed for 2-3 seconds and then stopped. Maybe the relay in that box makes a noise as it uses the capacitor to start the motor? I know my small tank has very little draw down - only a few gallons - and it was a short cycle. Yes, there's a check-valve first thing as the water pipe comes through the basement wall. I have a shutoff on the well tank, and I have a drain valve right on the pump line after the pressure shut-off, so with the pressure tank shut off I hardwired the pump (bypassing the 40/60 shut-off control.) With the drain valve open lots of water comes out. As I closed the valve the pressure goes to 30 lbs pretty quick, and then very slowly creeps up to 42-44 and stops. I believe it should spike to whatever the max pressure of the pump is since the water has no where to go, but it doesn't. I guess that means my 7 yr old pump is shot?

[hkstroud]

Is this a submersible pump?

[cnrhome]

Yes ts submersible... and I have a theory. If the water pipe was cracked just outside my house, such that at 40 lbs it starts leaking... that would explain why my pressure never gets above that number and also why the puddle keeps forming. My cement basement floor has cracks where water has bubbled up from in the past - every 5th yr or so in the spring with the snow thaw and heavy rain. The water table pushes it up through my floor cause the ground is still frozen and cant absorb it.

[hkstroud]

If the water pipe was cracked just outside my house, such that at 40 lbs it starts leaking.

Of course that is possible, but

and when I turn off the power, the noise stops, so the pump is doing something.

Seems to me that if it were a leak it would take a little time for the noise to stop. It would be unusual to have a leak that only leaked above a certain pressure. To have a leak only above a certain pressure you would have to have a joint that utilized compression type connection. Such as polybutylene piping with hose clamp connections.

First to note that life of a pump is determine more by the number of times it starts and stops than the amount of time it runs. Second is to note that the volume of flow is determined not only by the size of the pump but also by the back pressure from the tank.

There are two wire pumps and three wire pumps. Not all that familiar with three wire type but my understanding is that the two wire systems are not capacitor start type motors. The switch for the start windings are an integral part of the motor. The three wire systems are capacitor start motors with the capacitor and start switch are in the control box.

I guess that means my 7 yr old pump is shot?

I suspect you are correct. Certainly a pump should last longer than that but I suspect that the high frequency of the starting and stopping has damage the pump. I suspect that the pump is running on the start windings only.

I think you need a much larger tank of a lower volume pump.

[cnrhome]

The water-noise I can hear is directly tied to the pump being on/off. I turned the pump off overnight and the system in the house held pressure at 40 or so. The basement floor was mostly dry - some residual water seeped to the lowest point. The pump is pulling 4.78 amps while its on, which sounds about right. Is there any way a pump can go 'half-bad', where it can only pump to 40 lbs and not higher?

If not, I don't see any other explanation than a leak in the underground pipe from well to house. I guess it doesn't have to be a pressure related leak but enough water comes into the house as its being used, but as soon as the demand is shut off, and the system builds up pressure, more water finds its way out of the leak and into the ground so that it cant get above 40 lbs in the house. If the leak was in the house, I'd see water somewhere. And it would be a lot of water because the pump was on non-stop for at least a week since it never hit the 60 lbs cut off pressure. I'm guessing there's no way to pressure test that pipe. And the leak being right outside my foundation wall is what causes the bubble up puddle on my floor. Does this make sense?

The pipe is some kind of black poly - the house is 45 yrs old. I think this would be one piece all the way from house to the well. Is this repairable with barbed couplings and clamps underground?

[cnrhome]

There are two wire pumps and three wire pumps. Not all that familiar with three wire type but my understanding is that the two wire systems are not capacitor start type motors. The switch for the start windings are an integral part of the motor. The three wire systems are capacitor start motors with the capacitor and start switch are in the control box.

I suspect you are correct. Certainly a pump should last longer than that but I suspect that the high frequency of the starting and stopping has damage the pump. I suspect that the pump is running on the start windings only.

I think you need a much larger tank of a lower volume pump.

Sorry, I didn't reply fully to your post. It is definitely a 2-wire pump and definitely has a capacitor. When you say its running on "start windings only" would that mean it can only pump to 40 lbs? Is there any way to test this?

[hkstroud]

How deep is the well?
Does the pump have a foot valve or a integral check valve?
What kind of well piping?
Have you look and listened for the sound of water flowing back down the well as the pump is running?
How is the well pipe connected to the piping to house? Do you have a pitless adapter?

Is there any way a pump can go 'half-bad',

Only way I can think of is if the run windings were defective and the pump is running on start windings only.
Watch start switch during start up. Check amperage draw with amp probe on each leg.

How deep is pipe buried? Would it be possible to put pressure gauge on the piping at the well head?

Is this repairable with barbed couplings and clamps underground?

Yes.

It is definitely a 2-wire pump and definitely has a capacitor

Not familiar with 2 wire systems with capacitors. Must be a PSC motor. Have you checked the capacitor? Not likely to be capacitor however. If capacitor bad, motor should not ever start.

If it is a 2-wire system, what is switch in control box doing. There must be a switch to make the clicking noise. Caps don't make noise?

Is pump a multi stage (speed) pump?

[cnrhome]

The well is 80 ft deep, and its maybe 30-40 downhill from the house. The pump is a Goulds 7GS05422C and their literature ( GS Pump 5-25 Range (1/2 to 5 HP) Standard Capacity | Xylem Applied Water Systems - United States ) says it has "The built-in check valve is constructed of stainless steel." The well head is cast iron or steel or whatever rusts to pieces and crumbles. I know it was replaced at least once before I bought the house as the kids found an old one in the woods. The well water pipe to house is 1" black poly that comes through the basement wall at ankle height and immediately transitions with a plastic pipe adapter that connects to the brass check valve.

While pump is running at the well head I can hear the motor hum, but no water sound at all. I looked down the well and cant see anything - there's a spider web 3 or 4 ft down. In NY the frost line is 4' so its going to be down pretty far and unreachable without a lot of digging.

I ran a rudimentary capacitor test from here : TESTING SUBMERSIBLE PUMP CONTROL BOX and I think it was OK. My newer digital meter doesn't show the 'needle going down', and my old analog meter doesn't perform too well. But the pump definitely DOES run, so I think the cap has to be OK.

So this morning I set my on/off cutoff switch 20/30 so that we have some water in the house and at least the pump gets to turn off. My basement floor dried out. I just now raised the off pressure to let the pump run for a while and I 'hope' to see water seeping up through the floor. That would 100% confirm it is a broken pipe/leak right near the house.

It would be 5-6 ft down to dig it out from outside the house. But this pipe is also right next to basement walkout stairs w//Bilco doors. I could break take out the wooden stairs and break through the concrete block in that little 'pit' to reach where the pipe enters the house. I just still won't know how close/far it actually is away as its hard to judge how much saturation the ground needed in order to push up through my floor. But its got to be close because my house is on a slight hill and that pipe goes downhill all the way to the well - losing maybe 30-40 ft in elevation. And we all know water only goes downhill...

[hkstroud]

I hear what you are saying about the water on the basement floor. I agree that unless you are having rain it has to be from the piping. Its coming and going also indicates a leak only at certain times. To have a leak only above certain pressures would have to be at a coupling joint. Perhaps a clamp has rusted into. A busted polybutylene pipe would leak all the time.

Before I started digging I think I would put a tee in the line before the check valve and install a schrader valve. Pressurize the line to about 60 lbs. with air to see if it will hold pressure.

Another place to have a pressure type connection would be at a pittless adapter if you have one.

The well head is cast iron or steel or whatever rusts to pieces and crumbles

Do you mean the well casing or the well piping? How big is the piping the kids found. Can't see someone using galvanize well pipe 7 years ago.

Fine something and knock out the spider webs, shine a flash light down and see if you have a pittless adapter.

[cnrhome]

My afternoon test (pump on for 4 hrs, couldn't get above 42 lbs) and WATER on the floor! So I'm convinced it is a cracked/broken pipe just outside the foundation as we've had no rain recently. I'm sure its leaking all the time, but if the pump isn't on, it will leak until the pressure in the pipe from the pump to my house abates and then it just sits. Which is why the floor dried up when I shut the pump off all night/morning. The check valve right inside the house keeps the house water from going back into that pipe and leaking out.

I'm pretty sure its one piece of pipe from the well head all the way into the basement. No clamps or connections, but it just cracked after 45 yrs. We did have the coldest winter EVER last year - many many many days below 0, and also this area has lots of shale so I'm sure the earth they use to backfill was full of it. (some other website mentioned sharp rocks that could cause breaks)

I think it'd be called the 'Well Casing' - the thing that stick up 2 ft out of the ground, 6" in diameter that the pump is fed into. It was NOT replaced when I had the pump replaced 7 yrs ago so who knows how long its been there. It looked old and rusted when I bought the house 15 yrs ago.

[cnrhome]

So before I start I wanted to ask what kind of pipe should I use to patch it? A 1 ft piece of the same pipe? (its 45 yrs old; I assume I can still buy this coiled black poly?) Or should I use Sched 80 PVC? I've been wanting to redo some of my piping so would prefer if something plastic and threaded came through the basement wall. My hard and acidic water eats through galvanized and I wanted to go one size bigger where I can to increase flow.

[hkstroud]

the thing that stick up 2 ft out of the ground, 6" in diameter that the pump is fed into.

Yes that would be well casing. Well casing holds the dirt back and keeps the hole open. Well piping would the pipe between the pittless adapter and the pump at the bottom of the well. Probably 3/4 or 1" diameter. Probably PVC or flexible well piping. Could be galvanized iron pipe but I doubt it.

At this point I agree with your analysis. The question now is do you just find and repair this leak, or do you replace the all the pipe from the well to the house. The poly does get brittle over time and another leak is quite possible in the near future..

After you find the leak you could repair with poly and a barbed connector or switch to PVC. Increasing the pipe size after the repair won't increase you flow. Flow is restricted by the smallest diameter pipe it has to pass through,

Unless you are going to dig by hand to find and repair this leak I would recommend replacing the entire line. If you get a machine to do the digging the additional cost would make replacing the entire line the most cost effective. Cost of piping itself is insignificant.

See this discussion about tank size and about using a check valve in addition to the pump internal check valve.

http://terrylove.com/forums/index.ph...-or-wad.18743/

[cnrhome]

Well I hope your guys check in on Saturdays and that you like unexplained mysterious mysteries! I am baffled!

First - I had threaded PVC down my well before, But I believe they replaced that with black Poly with the pump 7 yrs ago.

I decided to go through my outside stairs 'pit' instead of down 6 ft from outside. Couple hrs later, pipe going through the wall is exposed. No apparent leak. Dirt around the area is damp but not saturated as I expected from a leak. My pump still maxes at 42 lbs and after it stays on for hrs, my floor has puddles. Where is it coming from!?

I dd solve one mystery - the Pump Control box is completely bypassed. I knew I heard the capacitor or its switch hum when the pressure switch kicked on yrs ago, but the old pump must have been 3-wire that used the capacitor and box. When they replaced it 7 yrs ago, the yellow wire was capped off and there are no connections to the box control switch at all. So that Control Box is now just a junction box to connect wires from the on/off pressure switch and the black/red to the pump.

So I have no control box and no matter if my pump is slow/shot/check valve broken, or if my pressure tank is ruptured or whatever I STILL get water on my floor. There HAS to be a leak! And I think it HAS to be a big one as it keeps the pump running forever and cant get above 42 lbs, right? How far away from my house could it be to not continue down hill and instead bubble up through my floor?

As for replacing the entire line, its well over 200 ft, down a steep rocky hill in the woods with downed trees and brush etc. That might be best, but its $1000s I just don't have.

[hkstroud]

With a piece of 3/4" back pipe about 12-16" long and a hammer punch a hole in the cinder block just to the right of where the well pipe comes through the wall at the floor level. Just punch through the interior surface of the block.

If you get water and the outside ground is dry, the leak could be in pipe as it passes through the cinder block.

A leak in the poly embedded in the concrete patching meets all of your symptoms.

[cnrhome]

Oh boy, what a day! Started at Home Depot at 7:30AM and finished with the backhoe around half past midnight. I'm sure the neighbors weren't happy but that rental had to go back this morning! I first started with checking in the wall for the leak by breaking around where the pipes went through. All dry in there.

So after 5 hrs of digging - I FINALLY found the leak! It was probably 8 ft of pipe away from the house but actually only 2 ft from the corner where the leak seeped into the basement. The piping takes a very circuitous route to the well - 2 huge turns bending back towards the house before it goes the opposite direction and down the hill to the well. NOT what I expected when I started digging. I can only think that when the house was built there was some huge rock shelf that they didn't feel like dynamiting so they just rerouted the pipe around it.

The pipe where it leaked was resting on some VERY hard, blackish clay, embedded with VERY sharp rocks. It's a layer in the soil and a BAD one for pipes. After 43 yrs it finally cut through and killed my water pressure.

The piping covering the wires was also broken but luckily there was no damage to the wires. It was a much thinner conduit. I used the same back poly to cover over the older piping of what I dug out so at least that section will be better protected. I also sleeved both water and electric using a 3" PVC through the cement block wall so they aren't cemented in place.

So we have water pressure, but now I just have HUGE mess to clean up... Thx for helping and I hope no-one else has to deal with something like this! Attachment 47808Attachment 47809

[hkstroud]

Congratulations. It was a long hard road but you finally got there. Again congratulations.

[cnrhome]

Thx... I sure hope this is a one-time thing. I do NOT want to do this again!