[talaniman]

Hobby lobby isn't selling a product here they are limiting choices based on belief, that has no basis in science. They know better than a doctor what's best for a patient and call it a benefit?

Stopping an egg from being fertilized is NOT abortion. And none of their business. But effective birth control methods eliminate the need for abortions. Ignoring the scientific facts is what makes the religious right WRONG. What we got is good enough no need for anything better, is WRONG!

The boss telling a woman what her health choices should be is WRONG! The boss having more rights than workers is WRONG! Beliefs got nothing to do with it. Corporations are not people.

[speechlesstx]

don't doubt that's what their mission statement says, I never disagreed there. Where I disagree is you saying that employees seek out employment there BECAUSE of those mission statements. I thought I was pretty clear on that.

I don’t disagree that for some it’s just a job, but you’d be a fool to think a company’s values don’t play into people’s decisions on employment. There’s a Mardel half a mile from my work, most of the employees obviously see it as part of their ministry, not just a job, so the feminist overlords need to just butt out. They knew what they were getting into when they took the job.

[speechlesstx]

Stopping an egg from being fertilized is NOT abortion.

OK, are you not paying any attention? Hobby Lobby furnishes 16 methods to prevent fertilization. What's the problem?

Still waiting on an answer to this.

[tomder55]

Congress will do SQUAT! They have done nothing about any of the SCOTUS rulings so in a vacuum, the president has no choice but to act.

It is the Congress that was dominated by libs that voted for Obamacare . Even they did not include any contraception mandate . Why ? Because they would not survive reelection if they put that into the law . The mandate is the result of a bureaucratic putsh backed by the emperor . The President has NO constituional authority to make law . How many times does he have to be judicially smacked down before he gets it ?

[speechlesstx]

He gets it, he doesn’t care.

[tomder55]

As the United States becomes more and more culturally pluralistic we will see more disagreement in all areas of society — including over what the federal government deems “essential health benefits.” Here, as elsewhere, promoting decentralized and individualized decision-making can tamp down conflict and respect everyone’s freedom to live according to their principles. An employer-provided system can pit employers and employees against each other; a fully nationalized system can likewise ignite culture wars over taxpayer funding for this or that objectionable health care benefit.

Hobby Lobby Ruling Shows Deeper Flaw in US Health Care - The American Interest

BTW .. RFRA was passed in the Robert Byrd and Tom Foley 103rd Congress and was introduced into legislation by Chuck the schmuck Schumer. Bubba signed it into law.

[speechlesstx]

Fear not lefties, apparently the emperor can "borrow the power" from Congress to fix things according to Turban Durbin.

[talaniman]

Two unanimous decisions today, SCOTUS ruled Obama's LRB appointments were unconstitutional. Apparently they all agreed Congress determines when it is in recess.

On another front, they unanimously agreed that Massachusetts'' 35 foot buffer zone around abortion clinics was unconstitutional. Apparently, all 3 female justices and the female plaintiff are waging a war on women.

Right calls?

I answered this already, but for the record, and simple majority vote to fill the board and judge vacancies makes it a moot argument. As for the buffer zone, the stupid judges should afford citizen the same buffer zone that they have around the Supreme Court building don't you think?

OK, are you not paying any attention? Hobby Lobby furnishes 16 methods to prevent fertilization. What's the problem?

They are the same freaking thing and to allow some and not others is a stupid objection. Hobby Lobby furnishes nothing, health care providers do, and while the newer options maybe a bit more expensive, they are tailored to give patients more options depending on what the doctors recommend after testing.

Religious hypocrisy based on ignorance. Like banning Bayer aspirin for Walmart Brand. The claim of abortions is as dumb and untrue as it gets. What's so STUPID is that contraceptives of all kinds actually prevent abortions, and treat a myriad of female health problems beside just birth control.

You guys aren't paying attention!

[tomder55]

The claim of abortions is as dumb and untrue as it gets.

and that is based on a single study that Teva submitted to the FDA to change the labeling . Like it or not , the owners of Hobby Lobby have a religious belief that life begins at conception . The government contends that a pregnancy is “the period of time from implantation until delivery.”. So if a contraceptive is preventing a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus then it is causing an abortion according to the owner's religious beliefs . You can say it is a disputed contention ,and even though there are many physicians and researchers who stand firm on the view that pregnancy begins at the moment of conception, in the end that is irrelevant because it's the deeply held religious beliefs of the owners that matter .
Alito said if the government has a "compelling interest " in making sure their employees have access then the government should pay for it.

[talaniman]

SINGLE PAYER!! Medicare for all and screw the private insurance companies, and the religious JUNK SCIENCE crowd!!

PROBLEM SOLVED :D Move along,nothing else to see here!

[speechlesstx]

No Tal, you're moving the goalposts. Hobby Lobby pays to prevent fertilization, get over it. EC is not the same thing and you know it. There would be no "emergency" if there was no fertilization.

This is what you haven't answered:

Tal: but I think a companies religious freedom stops at the religious freedom of the employees

So let's put that to the test. A pharmacist says his religious beliefs won't allow him to dispense abortifacients. What now?

[earl237]

There is a good article in "The Guardian" today titled "The Hobby Lobby ruling proves men of the law still can't get over "immoral" women having sex. That pretty much sums up the real intent of the ruling. Busybodies interfering with things that are none of their business and hiding behind so-called "religious liberty". The hypocrisy of right-wing nuts makes me really mad. Rush Limbaugh was married 3 times and had no children, so he either used some form of birth control, or was impotent or secretly gay which has been rumored. I'm pretty disappointed with Anthony Kennedy, he used to be the sensible, middle-of-the road justice, but lately he has been siding with the other four idiots. Antonin Scalia is a good example of why there should be mandatory retirement for Supreme Court judges. He has turned into the embarrassing uncle that you dread having over at Christmas. In Canada, Supreme Court judges must retire at 75.

[talaniman]

No Tal, you're moving the goalposts. Hobby Lobby pays to prevent fertilization, get over it. EC is not the same thing and you know it. There would be no "emergency" if there was no fertilization.

This is what you haven't answered:



So let's put that to the test. A pharmacist says his religious beliefs won't allow him to dispense abortifacients. What now?

Stopping fertilization is a better outcome than a killing a half formed baby. And that BC/EC does the same thing as a condom, or spermicide, it BLOCK fertilization in a more reliable way. That's just the science dude and really believing or a deeply held belief is a personal thing. There was a time that it was a belief that black people were inferior to white people and the earth was flat, so beliefs can change and evolve can't they?

Let the boss and the pharmacist work out their problems, its between them. No different than a worker in a right to work state who gets fired because the boss said so. Why is the pharmacist so special? It's the bosses business that he built and controls right? That's what you and Tom always say.

There would be no "emergency" if there was no fertilization.

If she was smart and had a doctor who guided her through the process of BC, then their would be no emergency, but nothing is 100% effective. Isn't that up to the woman to decide? Oh I see, you have a right to make women abstinent. No you don't, its NONE of your business.

I like what Earl said, and agree with the age limit for SCOTUS!!!

[speechlesstx]

Dude, I'd be interested in this science that says preventing fertilization is the same thing as EC. I'm still interested in my religious rights for employees question. I know answering it puts you in a bind, you'd have to take both sides or otherwise contradict yourself.

[tomder55]

SINGLE PAYER!! Medicare for all and screw the private insurance companies, and the religious JUNK SCIENCE crowd!!

PROBLEM SOLVED :D Move along,nothing else to see here!

even better..
a system in which individuals purchase health insurance within a private, competitive market would allow everyone to choose and fund only those benefits they want—and would bring down costs in the meantime. Instead of fighting each other over contraception coverage, we should spend time thinking how to make a system like that viable.

[paraclete]

Tom reversionism will not solve the problem, you have just described the system you had and it didn't work, millions could not afford coverage and so changes were made and if what you have doesn't solve the problem then more change is needed and taking the private, for profit, insurers out of the equation might be the solution

[tomder55]

I'm really revisionist then because I'd like to go back to the days when the patient made deals with the doctors . Trust me ;we'd all be better off .

[paraclete]

have you actually ever tried to make a deal with a doctor? mine ignored me and sent me a bill

[talaniman]

Doctors, nurses, and facilities. We need a LOT more, and throw in some home care professionals to boot.

Dude, I'd be interested in this science that says preventing fertilization is the same thing as EC. I'm still interested in my religious rights for employees question. I know answering it puts you in a bind, you'd have to take both sides or otherwise contradict yourself.

The only difference I see is the timing, long term, versus short term. Study the science for yourself and let me know. Its still evolving. As far as employee/boss relationships, it can work if they both WANT it to. Both their fortunes are tied together.

[Catsmine]

I'd like to go back to the days when the patient made deals with the doctors .

It's already happening. There are many physicians who do not process any insurance. Look for "Concierge Health Care" in your area.