[Bigvoldaddy22]

If an employee verbally attacks another employee, manager, or Owner while not on the clock is this grounds for dismissal?


We have an employee (hourly) who is very upset with management after his best friend was laid off. He has made it very clear to the manager that he will not talk about it (tell them how he feels about them and what they did) unless he is off the clock in outside the office building. He feels this will be safe ground to verbally attack them safely with no chance of being fired. I however told him that I thought he could be fired at any time if any employee verbally attacked an owner or member of management no matter where or when. And is it that cut and dry? Does it matter on how things are said or what is said? Other then just cussing and acting a fool? If he directs his words to one or two members of management could he be setting himself up to be dismissed right on the spot just for saying it? What is the law about this?


Thanks. Just trying to maybe save someone from also losing their job. However it might be for the best as I don't think someone like that is good for this company.

[Alty]

Most employees are at will employees. That means that management can fire them for any reason, or no reason at all.

Would you keep an employee that verbally attacks you, even if he doesn't do so while on the clock?

There's no reason to keep someone like that around, and if he's at will like the majority of employees, that would be the perfect reason to just get rid of him and find someone new.

[ScottGem]

Being "off the clock" has absolutely no bearing on how an employer will feel about an employee. The only time being off the clock may provide some protection is if the employee is not expected to perform as an employee.

But attacking one's employer, verbally or physically, doesn't fit that scenario. Employees have been fired for posting disparaging remarks about their company online.

So tell your friend, if he wants to keep his job he will keep his anger to himself.

[Bigvoldaddy22]

Thank you both for the answer and I will pass this along to him Monday morning. I doubt he will listen to me but at least I feel like I did the right thing in telling him. Not sure what "at will" means. He is a higher level then me and he has some certifications but he is still just an hourly tech that has had some run ins with management in the past. He has always said to us that he feels safe because this company needs him to survive, but his best friend did too and they let him go last Friday.

[ScottGem]

At will means that employees are employed at the will of employers. Basically it means that, unless a employee has a contract they could be terminated at the will of the employer.

[smearcase]

I agree with both previous posts and I believe alty has said what is best for all concerned: "There's no reason to keep someone like that around, and if he's at will like the majority of employees, that would be the perfect reason to just get rid of him and find someone new." At will means that they can fire him for any reason or no reason at all unless there is a union or other type contract, but insubordination was not protected where I worked.
No one is irreplaceable. Your chances of having a better workplace are greater with him gone regardless of his skills.

"Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude." T. Jefferson (I updated his use of the word man, with person).

I had probably five employees I supervised who fell into the bad attitude category over my 35 years. We worked to get rid of them (which wasn't easy because of union protection).
Most of them self-destructed before we could get through the process, because they committed a one-step, instant grounds for dismissal violation which your co-worker is about to do.
If it turns physical which is always a possibility, he will have much bigger problems. In our case they were mostly technically competent employees but they weren't missed. The negative impact they create on other employees is gone (a breath of fresh air) and those remaining employees usually step up get the work done. The only advice I would give him if I were you is to avoid any physical contact at all cost. Otherwise, let him go.

[odinn7]

You know, we all...or most workers anyway...hate management. It's just the way things go. You always tend to hate the authority no matter what they do for you. I work for myself and I hate myself because I'm management....

Anyway...Many people seem to think that they are needed and can get away with anything. There are also many people that seem to think they know the employment laws and what they can and can't do. Your friend seems to fit into all of this.

I know if he worked for me and he verbally attacked me either to my face or even online, I would have no more use for him and would replace him...even if he was "irreplaceable"...who needs that kind of cancer eating up the work place? Nobody.

[joypulv]

One very foolish part of all this is that you say the friend was LAID OFF, not fired.
Layoffs cost employers money in raised unemployment insurance rates.
Employers lay people off because they are tightening their belts financially.
If they had wanted to just get rid of the friend, they could have fired him, costing them nothing. Rarely is a worker entitled to UI when fired.

[Bigvoldaddy22]

Thanks again everyone! Well here is the update. I printed these off and let him read them (well first two as I had not been back till today) He of course did not agree. He said "I know my rules and what they can or can not do to me!" I do not think it is under contract as no one here is that I know of and I have asked. We are a small private company with no union so it seems to me that we are all 'At will" employees.. Well Monday and Tuesday came and went and he did not talk to anyone. He made it clear to everyone around he was "very angry" and did not want to see or speak to anyone. Management worked around him and did not even try to speak to him. Today during lunch he came in and sit down with a couple of us and we asked about how his friend (one that was laid off) was doing. He blow up and started talking about how wrong the owners had been to lay him off without any notice or heads up. Now I know for a fact that he had been wrote up at least three times for being 2-3 hours late and for missing so much work. Another employee said that he was caught forging his time sheet about a month ago. So we all feel that he had it coming and everyone should have known. You are right the owners had every right to just fire him but they did a lay off or at least that is what the company memo said. Management dose not have to give you a notice of a lay off do they? Never heard of that. Well he said what he wanted to say to us and walked out. We wish he would blow up and lose hi job.

[odinn7]

There is no need for a notice for a lay-off or being fired.

If this guy (the one that was laid off) did what you say he did, then he is very lucky they laid him off as they could have just fired him and he would have got nothing. He should be thankful he is laid off and at least collecting. His friend, the guy about to lose his job, should be careful and hope that he is as lucky if it happens.

And he doesn't know the rules like he claims...I kind of hope he finds that out. I do have to wonder though...if he's so sure about himself, what is he waiting for?

[ScottGem]

There are rules for certain sized companies who do mass layoffs. There is no rule for a single layoff in a small company. This guy sounds like a piece of work who thinks he knows everything. So let him blow up to management and let them get rid of him.

[Alty]

The jokes going to be on him if he follows what he thinks he knows and blows up at management.

His friend was lucky that he was laid off and not fired. If he wants to be mad at anyone, he should be mad at the friend that didn't take his job seriously, and even tried to steal from the company (forging your time sheet is theft). He got really lucky. The company could have fired him, and charged him, if what you heard about him is true. Instead he got laid off, and he should collect his unemployment and be damn grateful.

As for your friend, I'd love to see his face when he does what he says he's going to do, and gets fired. I'd love to see him try to sue for wrongful dismissal and find out that everything we told you here, is true, and he's screwed.

Jobs aren't easy to come by. If he wants to fight a loser friends battles and risk his own job by doing it, maybe the company is better off without him. He doesn't seem like the brightest bulb on the tree.

[smoothy]

I agree with everyone here... I've actually seen UNION employees fired for doing far less, and we are talking one of the major unions. He obviously hasn't been in the workforce long if he has those beliefs. And he's likely to spend a lot of time between jobs. And I think hat will become a frequent occurance until he grows up and starts acting both more mature but far more responsibly.

They can and do fire people for doing anything that reflects badly upon the employer, ANYWHERE they may be. Few unions could or would save the job of an employee that got openly beligerant with management.

That happens much, much faster when hostility or violence occurs. With the instances of workplace violence that make the news... and those that don't... most employers have ZERO tollerance for that... people like that are a loose cannon and would become a major financial liability if he were to do something later and the company had known of this now and did nothing.