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    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #1

    Nov 12, 2013, 09:14 PM
    The Constitution
    Hello:

    The Fifth Amendment says a person cannot be put in jeopardy TWICE for the same crime. But, that's what we routinely do.. Not only do we send people to prison (1) AS punishment, but (2) FOR punishment inflicted on him by the staff. Nobody denies it. In fact, we demand it.

    There's NOTHING in the law that says a person should be sent to prison, to BE punished. We just think it oughta happen, and it does. The laws don't even call for hard labor any more. They just call for a term of imprisonment.

    Recently, it occurred to me that this is a violation of one's Constitutional right against double jeopardy, since a prisoner is subjected to BOTH prison AND routine punishment.

    Yeah, it's a stretch. But, that's what I do.

    excon
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #2

    Nov 12, 2013, 09:20 PM
    Best way to avoid this problem is stay out of prison.

    I believe there is a methodology for doing so, but as it comes with a long list of don'ts many people don't follow this methodology.

    I think you have a good point, but prison is punishment for a crime, so instead of asking questions and being part of the problem, let us hear your solutions. What do you suggest as an alternative to prison?
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #3

    Nov 12, 2013, 09:31 PM
    Hello clete:

    The Bill of Rights speaks LOUDLY about how a person is to be treated when the government imprisons him. I have an interest in the Constitution. That's what this conversation is about. If you wanna start another one, knock yourself out.

    excon
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #4

    Nov 12, 2013, 09:43 PM
    Well ex perhaps it doesn't speak loudly enough. I recall your Constitution spoke about abandoning slavery but it took a long time for that to become a reality. There seems to be a disconnect between rights and day to day experience like the system isn't about respecting rights persee but enforcing laws so there is always contention at the edge. The marander rights didn't happen automatically under the Constitution they had to be enforced by a law. A prison guard who abuses a prisoner is probably breaking a law, but mounting a prosecution is a long process. The law assumes a prisoner will not be abused whether they have any basis for that assumption is another question

    I think you are drawing a long bow regarding double jeopardy but the Eight Amendment rights might be being denied, by the way it appears that for the first 150 years of your nation the Bill of Rights was largely ignored, it is only when there was a growth in the legal profession it became popular
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #5

    Nov 13, 2013, 06:11 AM
    Interesting thought, yeah it's a stretch. So what about this thing Holder wants to do in prosecuting Zimmerman again after he's been acquitted?
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #6

    Nov 13, 2013, 06:59 AM
    Hello Steve:
    So what about this thing Holder wants to do in prosecuting Zimmerman again after he's been acquitted?
    He was acquitted of murder.. The NEW charge would be a civil rights violation... It's a violation of double jeopardy too. But, I don't think he's gonna do that, or he would have by now.

    excon
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #8

    Nov 13, 2013, 08:38 AM
    Hello again,

    Sweden closes four prisons as number of inmates plummets
    For what it's worth.

    excon
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #9

    Nov 13, 2013, 08:43 AM
    For what it's worth I'd love to be able to close them all.
    ebaines's Avatar
    ebaines Posts: 12,132, Reputation: 1307
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    #10

    Nov 13, 2013, 01:08 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon
    Recently, it occurred to me that this is a violation of one's Constitutional right against double jeopardy, since a prisoner is subjected to BOTH prison AND routine punishment.
    Are you suggesting that being subjected to more than one form of "punishment" for a crime is a violation of the 5th amendment against double jeopardy? That's not a "stretch" - it's just plain wrong. The actual relevant text in the 5th amendment is: "..nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb.." Here "twice put in jeopardy" does not mean "punished in more than one way," but rather is about being subject to trial twice for the same aledged crime. Of course jail time by its nature involves multiple forms of punishment: loss of personal freedom, loss of family time, loss of livelihood, loss of voting rights (in some cases), and the indignities of being known as a felon, not to mention having to eat prison food. But that has nothing to do with the double jeopardy clause.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #11

    Nov 13, 2013, 04:05 PM
    Hello e:
    But that has nothing to do with the double jeopardy clause.
    That's true, UNTIL I file my case.

    excon
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #12

    Nov 13, 2013, 04:44 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello e:
    That's true, UNTIL I file my case.

    excon
    Hop to it man
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #13

    Nov 14, 2013, 06:21 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello e:
    That's true, UNTIL I file my case.

    excon
    Good luck with that.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #14

    Nov 14, 2013, 06:26 AM
    Hello again, Steve:
    Good luck with that.
    Thanks.. That's how change is made here, in the good ole US of A. It certainly ain't happening on THIS board. Nobody heard of Miranda until he filed suit. Nobody heard of Roe, before her suit. Well, you're gonna be hearing about excon v The Prison Industrial Complex.

    excon
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,741, Reputation: 341
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    #15

    Nov 14, 2013, 06:58 AM
    excon v The Prison Industrial Complex.
    sounds like a fascinating case
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #16

    Nov 14, 2013, 07:04 AM
    Hello again, tom:
    sounds like a fascinating case
    I'm gonna CHANGE the world.

    excon
    Handyman2007's Avatar
    Handyman2007 Posts: 988, Reputation: 73
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    #17

    Nov 14, 2013, 03:21 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello Steve:
    He was acquitted of murder.. The NEW charge would be a civil rights violation... It's a violation of double jeopardy too. But, I don't think he's gonna do that, or he would have by now.

    excon
    Double Jeopardy means being tried for the same Charge(s). If Zimmerman is tried on Civil Rights violations, those are completely different charges and are not even tried in the same way.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #18

    Nov 14, 2013, 04:45 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Handyman2007 View Post
    Double Jeopardy means being tried for the same Charge(s). If Zimmerman is tried on Civil Rights violations, those are completely different charges and are not even tried in the same way.
    If the charges arise out of the same events and the same actions he would be in double jeopardy. It's like the case of the american who was charged in Australia for murder of his wife and pleaded to manslaughter, when he left prison and returned to the US, he was again prosecuted for murder, double jeopardy.

    The state cannot say we will posecute this offence in this way and if we fail we will prosecute the offence in another way
    cdad's Avatar
    cdad Posts: 12,696, Reputation: 1438
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    #19

    Nov 14, 2013, 07:08 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, tom:
    I'm gonna CHANGE the world.

    excon
    Then your going to need to watch what you say very carefully. The reason being is the thinking as of now is that prison isnt punishment. I know strange concept. What it is thought of is rehabilitation. As in to rehabilitate the criminal into a productive citizen. That is where you enter into the twilightzone of grey areas.

    Also Im not getting the double jeapordy thing. Can you explain further?
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #20

    Nov 15, 2013, 05:39 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by cdad View Post
    Then your going to need to watch what you say very carefully. The reason being is the thinking as of now is that prison isnt punishment. I know strange concept. What it is thought of is rehabilitation. As in to rehabilitate the criminal into a productive citizen. That is where you enter into the twilightzone of grey areas.

    Also Im not getting the double jeapordy thing. Can you explain further?

    Ex is confusing the meaning of the amendments, what he is talking about is cruel and unusual punishment, also prohibited, but then in a nation that can treat non citizens that way, what chance does he have

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