[Wondergirl]

I'm telling you that if I go the route of Child Protective Services, my kids would probably never even speak to me again... Bob

What about all of you going for a few sessions to a family counselor? Or like someone said earlier, you first and the counselor will do his best to bring in the rest of the gang. You definitely need real-life help and support. I am watching you push your head back down into the sand.

[shelby68gt500]

Also, do they stay overnight at friends' homes or go to school -- in other words, have to care for themselves (and wipe themselves) without "Muddy" around?

Wonder, yes they do from time to time stay over at friends houses. I'm pretty sure though that they will "self-constipate" and hold it until they get home. I know my daughter has held it for more than 3 days before. There is no doubt that they "Can" wipe themselves, but why do it when Muddy will do it for them? They just don't see anything wrong with it. I even asked my daughter yesterday if she would be embarrassed if her friends knew that her mother brushed her teeth for her (didn't want to even bring up the wiping, she would have crawled up into a fetal position until Muddy arrived... ). She just looked at me and said no, like it was nothing...

Shelby, all I'm seeing from you is excuses. Are you normally this wimpy?

My God! Stand up. Be a MAN and protect your children from "Muddy." She is harming your children and you are only afraid that she will yell at you.

Go ahead, stick your head in the sand and you will be equally at fault for your children having mental disorders as well.

J9, I've never been wimpy, but I can't argue with your point. I do feel like I've been emasculated over the past 18 months and I just feel lost...

I really do appreciate everyone's opinion here, it really has reinforced a lot of my thoughts on what I wanted to do, but have been afraid to for fear of losing everything. But, my kids do have to come first... Getting ready to have a conversation with the wife in a few minutes... wish me luck... Bob

[ScottGem]

I have to agree that you are acting wimpy. You need to start doing something about this now. You don't seem to have a clue what to do which is why I'm suggesting talking to a mental health professional who knows how to deal with aberrant behavior.

One of the reasons, I'm skeptical is because I can't believe your children haven't learned that they are not being raised abnormally by interacting with other children. But I can't take the chance, because these children need help and you need to get it for them.

[J_9]

Bob, it's not good to have a conversation with "muddy" whatever that is, when the kids are around. Make sure they are out of the house as this is certain to blow up.

It's time to grow a pair and stand up for the well being of your children. They are being abused and manipulated. Your wife has some very serious control issues that need to be handled professionally.

[Alty]

Alty, this woman is/was the love of my life. I waited 36 years to find the right one and 40 to have kids hoping that waiting that long would give me the maturity to do the right things and have a marriage that would last my lifetime. I just can't fathom not being married to her, even if the last 18 months has been a living hell.
But, I guess just the fact that I'm on here bleeding my heart out to total strangers says a lot... Maybe it is just time to call her parents (I love them to death, they are the nicest folks) and ask them for their help. I just have a hard time determining what would be worse, how things are now or life back on my own again without her and my kids. I'm telling you that if I go the route of Child Protective Services, my kids would probably never even speak to me again... Bob

I've been with my husband for almost 24 years, married for 18. We have two children. Both of them wiped their own a$$es by the age of 4. They brushed their own teeth as soon as they got teeth. I would supervise, and help if they didn't do a good job, but they did it on their own. My kids are very independent. When they grow up they'll be ready for the world.

Your kids will likely have to have "Muddy" come to the office with them to wipe their butts, that is if she allows them to get jobs, if they can even find jobs. They'll probably be living in your basement their entire lives, because they can't take care of themselves. They'll end up depending on "Muddy" their entire lives, and it will be your fault, because you didn't do anything to stop it.

My husband is the love of my life too. Still is. But if he abused my children, he'd be out so fast he wouldn't know what hit him. It's my job as a parent to make sure no one hurts my children. Too bad neither you or your wife are willing to do that job.

Grow a pair! You're nothing but excuses. When you're ready to do something, come back and I'll help as much as I can. Until then, I'm done. Your wife is abusing your kids, and since you aren't man enough to put a stop to it, you're abusing them too, because you're allowing it to happen.

I don't help child abusers.

Get your head out of the sand and be a father!

[ScottGem]

I don't think talking to your wife is the answer. She clearly does not realize that she is exhibiting aberrant behavior and abusing your children. Talking to her is not going to change it. You need professional help to deal with her.

[J_9]

This situation calls for entire family counseling. We have a mother (Muddy) who is controlling, abusive, and manipulative and a father who doesn't have enough backbone to stand up and protect his children for fear that they will hate him.

If this situation is real, which I am seriously doubting, these children are looking forward to an adult life of depression and worse.

[Alty]

Oops! You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to J_9 again.

I couldn't agree more.

[joypulv]

I'm off the fence. This is all very artful and clever, reeling people in with just enough normalcy to keep the weird aspects real.

Mr. '68 Shelby GT 500, you are too intelligent, too articulate for this to happen unnoticed for so many years. You act like you were not aware of anything at all for the 13 years you were working a lot, as though you were literally gone. Even the most hard working parent has clues. This doesn't add up. Children of those ages don't do well in school, honor roll even, and come home and act like babies. And the introduction of 'my wife' now as 'Muddy' after several responses - hmm. Not buying it.

Gearing up for a novel or a sociology paper about online gullibility.

[J_9]

ERROR: You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to joypulv again.

I totally agree.

[talaniman]

Harshness warning


I'm not buying any of this at all. Sorry guy, no guy with two kids and a wife at home quits his job to be home. That's just not logical. Two jobs yes, a lesser job, oh hell no.

The kicker was how close your parents live, both down the street, and friends but are clueless about their grand kids and daughter/daughter in law. Sorry, can't see it. Either you are crazy as a betsy bug, or your wife is. I think its you, because I just don't see grand parents not knowing, or even allowing the kind of BS you describe to go on without saying something to you or her.

I cannot see a man allowing this to go on under his nose for 18 months. I wouldn't give a rats patoot about her getting mad, but she would damn sure be worried about ME being ready to get her crazy a$$ out of my house. With grandparents so close, you have plenty of family help.

Give her fair warning, and call the loony cops. If I knew you, I would have you both arrested. You thought the last 18 months were bad... The next few weeks would be pure dee hell. I would be sure of that.

Who takes this kind of crap and claims clueless.

[shelby68gt500]

I'm off the fence. This is all very artful and clever, reeling people in with just enough normalcy to keep the weird aspects real.

Mr. '68 Shelby GT 500, you are too intelligent, too articulate for this to happen unnoticed for so many years. You act like you were not aware of anything at all for the 13 years you were working a lot, as though you were literally gone. Even the most hard working parent has clues. This doesn't add up. Children of those ages don't do well in school, honor roll even, and come home and act like babies. And the introduction of 'my wife' now as 'Muddy' after several responses - hmm. Not buying it.

Gearing up for a novel or a sociology paper about online gullibility.

Thank you all for your input previously. Although I might not be as good with words as what would be required to really accurately portray my dilemma, I assure you all that this is real for me and no screenplay. As far as never knowing this was effectively going on previously, I just believe it got progressively worse as time went by. For the first 10 years of my kids lives I was out the door for work before they got up in the morning and more often than not, home through the door at night after they had been put to bed. I just wasn't around enough and now have gotten burned by it. My bad.
Muddy is the name my kids call my wife.
I did end up talking with my wife last night for a couple of hours before we were both exhausted. It was mainly just a one way conversation, she is livid over my unemployment and is taking steps now for a separation. I did make progress in getting her to admit that she is overly controlling of the kids and she just responded "guilty as charged".
I will take the input everyone has provided and consider it very seriously. I really do appreciate everyone's honest opinion, but will leave this thread now as it does appear pretty obvious that I'm no longer believable.

[ScottGem]

I'll suggest that you were not believable from the start. We've had others do this before so we have been burnt and are cautious.

But it doesn't really matter whether we believe you or not. Most of us have still offered basically the same advice. I don't think there is anything more to say on either side.

[dontknownuthin]

I understand the skepticism but also work in a family law practice... I've heard even weirder stuff. If this is legit (the fact we're skeptical should tell you how nuts it is if it is true.

Parents can't be selfish. You have to be willing to lose your marriage and for your kids to hate you if that's what it takes to be a good father. They will hate you as adults if you let this continue. You have grounds for sole custody if your story is true, and that will be the only chance to take proper care of the kids and also have a real relationship with them. You are already describing a behavior of your wife alienating the kids from you, which the courts look down upon very strongly. When alienation is going on, most judges I know will award custody to the alienated parent who can better be trusted to willingly foster and nurture the child 's relationship with the other parent.

You have to stop being a wet blanket. If you don't want a divorce, see a lawyer for a trial separation with you petitioning for temporary residential custody and a condition of counseling and supervision on your wife. You need counseling and parenting education yourself. What is nearly impossible for any of us to believe is that you didn't know all these years that your wife accompanied the kids to the bathroom or brushed their teeth or otherwise coddled and smothered them. You had to have known before so you are either lying about the whole story, or lying about not knowing until 18 months ago. If this is true, your wife is mentally ill and you are letting her run four people's lives.

[joypulv]

Here's more that doesn't quite add up. You quit a presumably good job (at a bad time in the economy, still) that apparently allowed the 4 of you to live comfortably enough to slide 18 months past when you quit. 'Getting into real estate' is expensive - course, exam, license, fees, insurance, more fees, all to make nothing until you get even 1 commission. You have said nothing about what your 20 year career was, or anything about attempts to get back into it. I can imagine having enough funds to exist for 18 months, but not much longer. And if you separate, you will have a lot more burden.
In other words, I still don't see a picture that gibes as a whole.

[talaniman]

Your role as provider has been compromised greatly and that's the change that needs to happen first and foremost, even if you must settle for a job that is not in your area of training.

Few men are successful inserting themselves into the family dynamic after a job loss, and unfortunately we miss out on a lot working from morning to night, comes with the territory. I doubt you consulted her, or even talked to her about it. You can hardly question her parenting now as much as you disagree maybe even for good reason without conflicts, against a background of unemployment which by your words was entirely your decision.

It will take years of work to straighten out your family and get help for ALL of you, because to be blunt and simple, too much has changed dramatically for the worst in a short period. What's more telling, to me at least, is answering the question of why neither one of your sets of parents has raised any of the things you have outlined as a problem or concern.

It's telling when you are the only one with concerns, yet she is the one with all the power. If you hope for change for the better, you better raise the power and respect again, and for a guy that means working hard for your family, since its obvious she isn't planning on it at all. That leaves YOU.

You better get on that because OBVIOUSLY you have little support for your position at present, and the things you have tried haven't worked. If no one will join you in counseling, then go yourself and help yourself before you even think you can help your family. I see few alternatives since you are the one being pushed away.