[leolasmom]

This is a bit lengthy, but I had to throw in all of the details my friends/sisters thought were important. So here goes:

I have a question regarding a controversial topic amongst my friends and family. First some background: I am a Black woman in her early thirties, born and raised in the Midwest. I did not have any Black friends or neighbors because my community was primarily white (with a sprinkling of Asian). Thus, other than my family, I had very limited interaction with Black people for most of my life. It was never an issue for me (contrary to what people tend to assume of Black children growing up in non-Black communities, I have a good self-image and have always been proud to be who I am :).

In college, I met other Black students and socialized with them---again, no issue. I'd say there was the same ratio of nice and not-so-nice people as one would find in the general population. Upon graduation, a good friend of mine and I both got great jobs in New York City (and we both eventually went to grad school there as well). Her parents bought a brownstone in a gentrified part of Harlem for an awesome price, and were generous enough to allow she and I to have an entire floor to ourselves for next to nothing. While the cost of living savings was wonderful, the environment was awful. Specifically, the Black people who lived there were horrendous. They were almost universally rude, hostile, loud, and angry (not to mention a good number that were slovenly, menacing, and treated the streets as their own personal landfill). My friend and I (she is White btw) steered clear of them as much as possible. What amazed me further still was that the nastiness could not be explained away by education, socioeconomics or geographics---my friend and I met several formally educated, middle class or above Black people and Blacks from other parts of the tri-state area while living there and found that we encountered pretty much the same attitudes, though to a lesser degree amongst the educated. Unfortunately, over the six years I lived in NYC I grew to dislike Black people as a whole.

Now that I am back in my home state, I find that not much of my feelings have changed. I do not want to socialize or have anything to do with other Black people (besides family of course). When part of a hiring committee for my firm, I squashed the candidacy of a qualified Black applicant simply because she was Black. I know there's a chance she wasn't anything like the Blacks I was around in New York, but I love where I work and its communal atmosphere---I simply cannot stand the thought of playing Russian Roulette with the environment where I spend so much time. I knew it was unethical and unprofessional, but I did it anyway. I do not actively disparage Blacks to co-workers or anything of that nature-- none of them have any idea I feel the way I do.

Now, here's the issue: I was discussing this topic with my sisters and friends one day, and we are (quite heatedly) split. Half of us feel that everyone is entitled to like or not like whomever they please based on their life experiences; the other half feel that people should be judged individually, even when there is something substantial to lose if the assessment is incorrect (especially when it comes to one's "own people"). A member of our group thought we could benefit from the opinions of a random sampling of people, so here I am, asking for your thoughts.

P.S. I know there will be some insults thrown in some people's answers, and that's OK--- it's up to everybody to decide how they want to express themselves.

[Oliver2011]

I am white and from the South. But it is Florida which some don't count as the South. Regardless growing up I had a very healthy mix of many ethnic backgrounds. To this day my friends and I don't care how someone looks on the outside or what church they go to on a Sunday. It is what's on the inside that counts for us.

I wish everyone was like that but unfortunately that will remain a dream.

[joypulv]

(I'm white and female)
I feel that you have no moral obligation to like any individual.
I feel that you had an ethical, moral, and legal obligation to give the black applicant the consideration due to any applicant. I would have had her come back for multiple interviews (a standard procedure anyway) and I would have had her stay for lunch in a group and I would have had a chat with her alone. Not bringing up race, just chatting for the feeling you should be able to feel.

Years ago I watched a TV show with Dr. Alvin Pouissant of Harvard, who at the time was a consultant on the Cosby Show. He was incredulous that a young black man who grew up much as you did (although I think he was an adopted child of a white family) seemed to prefer to hang out with his family and white friends. The professor seemed almost angry.

Jesse Jackson once said something to the effect that 'an angry black man can never be president' unlike an angry white candidate (angry over issues, angry over injustice, anything). Along came Obama, who bridged the gap between generalized anger and current political concern with a kind of calm that seems to transcend skin color. Of course his mother is white and he was raised by white grandparents, but he suffered a lot of the confusion that goes along with that, in school, and jobs, not to mention being reacted to negatively by strangers, cops, etc (of course he doesn't talk about them, just mentioned inching away in an elevator, because that would put him in the discomforting category of 'angry black'). Yet he got through it.
What's my point? The educated Harlemites you met were probably angry at injustice against them and against the poor blacks around them who were even angrier. You didn't grow up with all the little ways you could have been beaten down; they did. I didn't either. I can't imagine what it's like but I can appreciate it's existence.

[Jake2008]

What do we call a black person who does not like blacks, based on the behavior of one predominantly white section of a very large city.

What do we call whites who do not like whites, based on the behavior of one predominantly white section of a very large city.

I would say, ignorant, and uneducated.

An advanced education does doesn't 'qualify' you to judge anybody. And if anybody should be judged in the way you have described the people of the neighbourhood you lived in, it should be you.

Poor black neighbourhoods are not a sign of anything but poor black neighbourhoods, any more than poor white neighbourhoods are signs of poor white neighbourhoods. You choose to point a judgment finger at black people, which baffles me, as you have far more than racism going on here.

I don't know how much history you have read, but maybe to gain some understanding of 'your own culture', you should read about the Civil War, and the slave issue, which is a black issue. That, along with other books on black culture and history, would give you at least a running start on recognizing just how ignorant you are. However, a lot of ignorant white people would agree with you.

Hate, and all that goes along with it, is shown in your example of denying a black woman a job she would otherwise have been well qualified for. Another example of your education that leaves you in a position where you can judge someone based on colour, which is what your white racist counterparts do.

You have such a coldness about you, and a superficial arrogance of thinking that you are right, even to debating the issue of your question, which in itself is the stuff of hate, pure and simple.

If you had any tolerance, understanding, and education into why the neighbourhoods you described existed in the first place, you would have never felt so superior, that you questioned why you aren't right, instead of why you are so wrong.

Why not put yourself, at the next opportunity to learn, in a food bank as a volunteer to feed any poor, alienated, group of people. Why not volunteer at a women's shelter, if you ever have the opportunity, or allow yourself the opportunity.

Your 'education' has failed you, and you sorely need some seasoning in the real world.

[leolasmom]

I guess you missed this part:

"... the nastiness could not be explained away by education, socioeconomics or geographics---my friend and I met several formally educated, middle class or above Black people and Blacks from other parts of the tri-state area while living there and found that we encountered pretty much the same attitudes, though to a lesser degree amongst the educated."

You also apparently missed my acknowledgement that yes, the disposition of the applicant could go either way---I just didn't want to take the chance. Yes indeed, you are correct that it is prejudgment on my part. I never said it was awesome, and I never claimed to be perfect. We've all got character flaws, and that's mine. I'm at peace with it. I'm a big believer in karma, so I'm sure for every moment I've prejudged a random Black person, someone has done the same to me, and I'm sure I've lost a few economic opportunities because of it. But it doesn't bother me---cost of doing business.

I'm clearly all for diatribes, and personal attacks are par for this course so it's all good, but I'm disappointed that amongst alllllllll of that you failed to actually answer the question that was asked. You sound as if you'd have something pretty substantive to say on the matter of race and obligation between members.

P.S. There's also a certain irony to you immediately equating "black" to "poor neighborhoods" when I said nothing of the sort. I was and am referring to Black folks across the board. The brownstones on the block in Harlem where I lived are selling for over a million smackeroos (seriously, I wish I was in a position to buy when my friend's parents did--they made a killing), so clearly the entire area isn't one giant ghetto. There are plenty of public housing towers still here and there, and plenty of Black professionals living in market-rate housing, so all in all Harlem amounts to a socioeconomic mix.

[Wondergirl]

the other half feel that people should be judged individually

I had the advantage of working in public libraries for about 30 years and met people (patrons) of various ethnic, racial, political, religious persuasions? Types? Situations? Coworkers were mostly white, but the interesting variations were in our volunteer corps and court-ordered community service workers whom I trained and managed for15 years.

In those two groups there were all types of personalities and characters, no matter what the race or ethnic group or any other grouping. There were lazy whites and blacks as well as industrious ones. There were arrogant Asians, and Asians who would give you the shirt off their back. The upshot of all these experiences with these individuals was to teach me to look at the individual, not the group that h/she is part of.

[Fr_Chuck]

People will judge others by their world view of them, it is how you grew up, your social and economic view points along with moral and social issues. You also may judge a group, since as all black men, but the actions of the few you know at first.

[joypulv]

Quote:
"I know there will be some insults thrown in some people's answers, and that's OK--- it's up to everybody to decide how they want to express themselves."

You also said you wanted a random sampling of opinion, and that's what you are getting. I wasn't expecting you to then defend yourself in detail. (And that tends to drive some people away, and bring out more negativity in others, regardless of the topic.)

I was in a focus group with children once, and regrettably the person who had invented the product was present. It became apparent that he couldn't accept criticism without showing displeasure, and the children tried from then on to please. We aren't children and aren't here to please, so it's a bit different. But it seems pretty obvious that you don't want a sampling of opinion at all - you want your views to be validated.

[talaniman]

I don't begrudge you your preferences or comfort zone, but have to question the extent of your fears and behavior because of it, and hope you take an honest self evaluation to find where the fear comes from and a strategy to deal with it in mature positive ways.

To deny someone an opportunity because of... whatever... is totally unacceptable. No you don't have to be a fan of your own color just because of color, but its behooves you to be at least fair to all you meet, or encounter. Is that not the way you want to be treated... fairly, on your own merits and character?

[leolasmom]

No joypulv, not looking for my views to be validated, though I'd love to see how you extrapolated this conclusion from my earlier response (guess I'm a little slow since you say it's "pretty obvious").

It appears to me that I am 1) clarifying a misrepresentation of my statement and 2) letting the person to whom I was responding know I am aware that what I am doing is prejudicial behavior, since he or she seemed to express a strong desire for me to know this and understand its impact.

I don't see any persuasive argumentation in there whatsoever, but please, enlighten me.

[leolasmom]

I don't begrudge you your preferences or comfort zone, but have to question the extent of your fears and behavior because of it, and hope you take an honest self evaluation to find where the fear comes from and a strategy to deal with it in mature positive ways.

To deny someone an opportunity because of .....whatever.........is totally unacceptable. No you don't have to be a fan of your own color just because of color, but its behooves you to be at least fair to all you meet, or encounter. Is that not the way you want to be treated.........fairly, on your own merits and character?

Get ready for another diatribe ;)

I don't think it's a matter of fear; it's a more a matter of keeping negativity out of my immediate environment as much as I can. Prior to living in Harlem, I had no opinion either way on any kind of people--- there were simply optimists, pessimists, happy folks, sad folks, nice people and not so nice people. There were simply dispositions, and the distribution of them equally spanned the rainbow. During my stay in NY, I encountered an overwhelming number of angry, brash, and hostile Black people of all classes. Yes, they may legitimately have something to be mad at, but I am not obligated to join their parade of misery by proxy.

I am the daughter of two black immigrants (I've been here since I was two). They came here not speaking a word of English, with only enough money to rent a single room for a family of five, and knowing no one but each other. Being Black, poor and an immigrant in this country is one hell of a triple whammy (quadruple that for my father as a Black man); I can't begin to tell you the awful things that have been done to them. Through all of that, my parents never became angry and bitter people, though many wouldn't blame them if they did. They worked their butts off and reaped the rewards which provided a very comfortable upbringing for myself and my siblings.

Every time some crazy discriminatory thing would happen to my parents or their business, my dad would tell us that the only thing we can control in our encounters with other people are our reactions. Letting ourselves get engulfed in anger, resentment and bitterness would only serve to hold us back. I was told repeatedly growing up that the most important component of success is staying away from negative, disparaging people and the negativity they bring with them ("Always guard your mind" is my dad's favorite saying). Living in Harlem, I finally understood exactly what he meant. I was surrounded by so many Black people who had quite obviously let the anger, resentment and bitterness take them over, and it was holding them back from fully participating in life. The hostility, despair and other negativity permeated the air, and I wanted no part of it.

Presently, I feel that since there are a disproportionately large number of Black people who walk around with that rain cloud, all too eager to have someone join them under it, it's best to stay away from them completely. If I have to jeopardize my emotional and mental health wading through the Bitter Betties to find other Blacks who are optimistic, forward-thinking, and pleasant people (and despite what you've gathered from my initial post, I am generally a laid back, let's-have-a-good-time person), the cost is higher than I'm willing to pay, especially now that I have children of my own. My parents gave my siblings and I the gift of a positive, determined disposition by teaching us to avoid letting miserable people and crappy circumstances that inevitably pop up in life turn us into discouraged and angry people ourselves. I intend to pass that gift down to the next generation.

[leolasmom]

Shame on me, Talisman; I've been a hypocrite. Said allllll of the above and didn't even answer your question (Is that not the way you want to be treated... fairly, on your own merits and character?)!

To answer you, yes, I would. It would be ideal for everyone! However, life sometimes requires us to choose between two meritorious competing interests that cannot coexist. Since I am living in the real world and not the emotional vampire-free Utopia I've dreamt of, I look at my thought process as 1) the decision I came to when choosing from amongst the competing interests and 2) the ends justifying the means.

[joypulv]

Agree, agree.
But the job applicant is a totally different matter. I still think about her.
I would hope that you would convince your company to invite her back (if still unemployed) for another interview, even though she would need to know that there isn't an opening right now. At the very least, send a letter saying that her resume is on the top of the file of saved ones!

Did she give off a sense of having 250+ years of slave and general anger inside? Not everyone does. You don't see the difference between your personal life and your job?

[talaniman]

Your parents are wise and had their priorities straight. You are lucky to have had good guidance. My reference to your fear though is not just being afraid, but has different faces, anger, jealousy or insecurity, to name but a few, and these are the "feelings" that can color our thoughts, actions, and reactions and bring about those negative outcomes and attitude of which you wrote about.

We often only see people through a small slice of their lives and our reactions often fall to fear of the negative or what we perceive to be negative. We should always be cautious that our perception are true, and not just a reaction of our fears. I believe that's what your parents meant, and that's what I mean also, and that requires a careful look, and not a cursory glance before we react, or act.

However, life sometimes requires us to choose between two meritorious competing interests that cannot coexist. Since I am living in the real world and not the emotional vampire-free Utopia I've dreamt of, I look at my thought process as 1) the decision I came to when choosing from amongst the competing interests and 2) the ends justifying the means.

When making decisions it's always best, in my opinion to make them based on facts, and not just the feelings. Sometime we don't have the luxury of time or thought, but experience which takes time and tests can guide us, be it positive or negative experience that we can come to a reasonable decision. Helps also to have your own clear goal of just doing the right thing for yourself, and those around you, even if the vampires threaten to make obstacles to your happiness.

No the ends don't always justify the means, just puts off the consequences of your actions. So please, just give your prejudices and fears some thought, so the reactions to others has no adverse consequences in the future.

That's what an honest self evaluation does, gets you closer to your own mind, so you can better evaluate what's the right way to deal with these vampires who want to scare us and reek havoc in our lives.

Rather long just to say deal with people as individuals. Sorry.

[talaniman]

Agree, agree.
But the job applicant is a totally different matter. I still think about her.
I would hope that you would convince your company to invite her back (if still unemployed) for another interview, even though she would need to know that there isn't an opening right now. At the very least, send a letter saying that her resume is on the top of the file of saved ones!

Did she give off a sense of having 250+ years of slave and general anger inside? Not everyone does. You don't see the difference between your personal life and your job?

I believe in what goes around, comes back around, and you must make amends when you have done wrong to others.

That's doesn't mean they will forgive you though.

[joypulv]

I believe in what goes around, comes back around, and you must make amends when you have done wrong to others.

We don't always get to make amends to a specific person.

- I remember working in a department store when I was 19. I sold the wrong garter belt to a woman who didn't speak much English. It wasn't returnable as an undergarment. My supervisor quizzed me and I lied; said I didn't sell her the wrong item.

- Just before that I was in college briefly. I was a hippie peace type; a black student in a pretty dress and nice hairdo tried to befriend me, and I practically ran. I couldn't even say 'Gosh you look so straight' (which meant not hippie in those days); I mumbled something and turned away.

- More, and more, and more.
It's easy for us to come down hard on this. And it isn't because I'm white and grew up in a comfortable small town middle class home. I'm not walking on eggshells. I just feel something with her, that she learned what she learned and it's not hurting anyone. Except for that one job applicant, and any that might follow who are in situations that hinder all the good things that they have done to get somewhere in life.