[speechlesstx]

It also sounds like you've given them choice, which is what so many others are fighting against.

[Wondergirl]

It also sounds like you've given them choice, which is what so many others are fighting against.

If I were younger and livelier, I would go to under-performing public schools to figure out why they are that way, and then find ways to change that. Is it the curriculum? The teachers? The lack of expectations? Poor parent involvement?

I had a friend who taught remedial English in a community college. He was horrified by the dearth of writing and grammar skills displayed by his students. No one (not even the bright students) knows how to create an outline any longer or can diagram a sentence. I remember being taught those two things in a NC public school's 3rd grade (Yay, Mrs. Moose! -- yep, that was her name). Those two skills saved the day for me many a time.

[talaniman]

We aren't fighting against choice, at least I am not, just acknowledge that some have choices and some do not. My premise was in the question at the beginning, what of the kid who lose the lottery for those choice schools or fail to be accepted in those that are full?

But I also take issue with the broad premise that public schools don't educate, because even with the data that says some fall short on the tests there are still those that exceed in the not so great schools and many more with special, and specific needs, some outside the class room that cannot be addressed in the class room.

A voucher means little to those that have no where to use it, and is unfair without a fair means test either. To ignore the kids that don't win a lottery at a good school is making losers of them and they must be supported in some ways. How can we NOT?

[speechlesstx]

And my question is unanswered, why deny choice to those who have a chance to do better? You say you aren't against choice but if everyone can't have it then no one should?

[talaniman]

I am with WG, identify and solve the problems in public schools. I thought I was clear here.

[Tuttyd]

Sure it does, private schools educate and public schools don't. College is a whole other subject, though many are plagued by the same problems on a greater scale and the left's answer is to double down on both. It's not an issue of standards, it's an issue of ideology.

Even if private schools education students to a higher standard. This so called higher standard is still not good enough. As pointed out by some people here you are way down the ladder when it comes to the basics. More private schools that teach to this a better standard still won't do enough to get you very far up the ladder.

In my view what is required is national and international benchmarks and this can only be achieved through some type of national curriculum. Educational relativism may have worked in the past but it is inadequate for the modern world.

[talaniman]

We do struggle with states having different standards, procedures, policies, and approaches, and fiscal considerations.

[tomder55]

Yes, I am in the system. Our district is not wealthy by any means, but we took a hard look at the problems in education. We visited schools in fancy areas with all the resources present. Their test scores weren't much better than ours. We came up with a plan: build a new school staffed by teachers tired of mediocrity. We base every lesson on teaching our students to problem solve and we steer them toward careers in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math. Next, we allowed students for all over the valley (population 200,000+) to apply, even if they were not in our enrollment area. It worked! We had a wait list of hundreds for the inaugural year and even more this year. If parents are willing to drive their children and purchase uniforms, this is a fantastic opportunity for a public school. We've had visits from all over the state with superintendents and other school groups. Our test scores just arrived yesterday, and I imagine they will be 100 points higher at this school. It is amazing and it shows that public education can work.

Congratulations .I hope a similar model is adopted . I know that standardized testing is in part an attempt to make teachers accountable . I see no such effort on a national basis to make the school systems and the administrators accountable . I agree it is not a matter of wealth . I have seen innovation improve student performance in some of the poorest school systems . Michelle Rhee's efforts in the DC districts were very positive. I'm assuming that you are in a decentralized 'Magnet School'.

In my humble opinion ,school uniforms should be mandatory . If kids want to wear "colors " to help them identify then let them wear their school colors.

[tomder55]

We do struggle with states having different standards, procedures, policies, and approaches, and fiscal considerations.

States with some of your so called higher standards are failing their students at higher rates .Did you not see the op ? NY spends as much per student and claims to have some of the highest standards in the country . Still stuck on this nation standards nonsense I see. If the problem is basal then we have a long way to go . Throwing money at it doesn't solve the problem We could start with teachers being educated in the subject matter they will teach instead of going to higher education to learn teaching concepts .
America's Teachers Are Sharing Their Low Grades With America's Children - Forbes

[Wondergirl]

teachers being educated in the subject matter they will teach instead of going to higher education to learn teaching concepts .

Back in the '60s, the teachers college I went to gave us a lot of theory courses, but little practical stuff. At least all of us had had good teachers ourselves and were very literate. We had asked for courses on classroom management and were told, "No, it will all come clear when you teach."

Nowadays, too many teachers had an average to poor education (or they weren't paying attention). I remember some of the stories my younger son told me about some of his teachers who couldn't spell, didn't know parts of speech, didn't know how to assign material or write tests, and generally slacked off (probably just like they did as students). The questions that get posted on this site say a lot about education in general.

[Tuttyd]

states with some of your so called higher standards are failing their students at higher rates .Did you not see the op ? NY spends as much per student and claims to have some of the highest standards in the country . Still stuck on this nation standards nonsense I see. If the problem is basal then we have a long way to go . Throwing money at it doesn't solve the problem We could start with teachers being educated in the subject matter they will teach instead of going to higher education to learn teaching concepts .
America's Teachers Are Sharing Their Low Grades With America's Children - Forbes

Tom, I looked back through the posts. Tal has said nothing about national standards. The only replies that make reference in this area have come from Teacher Jenn and myself. Especially me.

Are you trying to avoid our posts?

[tomder55]

You are free to respond to my observation regardless of who I addressed them to.

[Tuttyd]

you are free to respond to my observation regardless of who I addressed them to.

Thanks.

I though that might get your attention.

[talaniman]

I am appalled as you are about how the poor kids are treated in the bastion of liberalism, but it's a national problem not confined, or unique to just New York, or liberals. Seems to me the income disparities has more to do with having better choices than the politics of education. Privatizing education is just the latest right wing idea that makes commodities of kids, and shifts the money from poor kids to rich guys with no better results.

Matt Damon is too rich to send his kids to public school as are all the rich and famous and a lousy example of the choice debate. Feeding the idealogical divide does nothing to find the collective solutions.

[speechlesstx]

Even if private schools education students to a higher standard. This so called higher standard is still not good enough. As pointed out by some people here you are way down the ladder when it comes to the basics. More private schools that teach to this a better standard still won't do enough to get you very far up the ladder.

In my view what is required is national and international benchmarks and this can only be achieved through some type of national curriculum. Educational relativism may have worked in the past but it is inadequate for the modern world.

I believe that was the point of the thread, national standards have only resulted in even lower scores. The problem is much more than that, public schools are a 'liberal bastion' as even Tal acknowledges and the usual answer is to throw more money at it and fight choice tooth and nail keeping kids in failing schools.

[speechlesstx]

Damon is the perfect example, choice for me but not for thee.

[Wondergirl]

Chicago Public has closed 49 schools, making students walk farther (through bad neighborhoods) to new schools, creating larger populations in those schools, causing all sorts of anxiety in students and their parents, and did not even think to address the problems in the closed schools (many of which were borderline and had potential for being fixed and were not always financial problems).

[speechlesstx]

And why is Chicago broke?

[talaniman]

I believe that was the point of the thread, national standards have only resulted in even lower scores. The problem is much more than that, public schools are a 'liberal bastion' as even Tal acknowledges and the usual answer is to throw more money at it and fight choice tooth and nail keeping kids in failing schools.

That's NOT what I said, or even implied. Try to be accurate even if you have to reread it. It's more complex than just National Standards because as we have seen how its implemented is different in every district, and state. City, or rural.

[Wondergirl]

And why is Chicago broke?

Because the politicians of both parties put money in their own pockets and in business connections' pockets instead of where it should go. Thank goodness I don't live in Cook County!