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jljl · Aug 5, 2013, 05:07 PM

My toilet flushes just fine, but occasionally, around a few minutes or so after the refill is finished, it would start up refilling again suddenly, and then it would stop.

Today it happened again, and I tried to press on the flapper to make sure that it's closed properly. After that, the refill-stop-refill happens continuously. I've checked that there's no water on the floor or around the tank, and I notice dripping sound from the tank.

My flapper is 3 years old. And I just had a plumber replaced the fill valve (Fluidmaster Universal Fill Valve-400ARP25 at The Home Depot) two days ago. Just the fill valved was replaced, nothing else)

Is it likely that the problem has to do with my flapper? I just called the plumber and he said that if there's no water on the floor than it doesn't have to do with what he did.

I have the 400A as shown on this page (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/plumbi...ve-759536.html)

Thanks so much for your help.

Jessie

ma0641 · Aug 5, 2013, 05:16 PM

The fill valve has nothing to do with the flapper although I don't know why the plumber didn't just use a replacement kit, it's only $3 more. Flapper is bad or the incorrect one or the seat is corroded. Some toilets require a special flapper, Kohler, older American Standard etc. Lift the flapper and see if the seating surface is smooth, there may be a piece of debris caught on it. You can buy, or have a plumber install, a seat repair kit that includes a special flapper designed for that seat.

jljl · Aug 5, 2013, 05:55 PM

Thanks a lot. The flapper had been working for the past 3 years so it's the right one, but it might have gone bad. I've checked the seating and it seems to be smooth. I am going to buy a replacement flapper and try to replace it.

My main concern is, could it be something else that is causing the constant refill/dripping sound? It would put my mind at ease if it's just the flapper. (I live far away from the hardware store so I am just wondering if there's anything else I can grap while I am there.)

Thanks!

massplumber2008 · Aug 5, 2013, 07:07 PM

Hi Jessie

A simple test to prove that the flapper is the issue here is to put 10-20 drops of dark food coloring into the toilet TANK...

If the colored water shows up in the toilet bowl over an hour or two then you know it is the flapper, for sure (check toilet bowl every fifteen minutes)!

If colored water does NOT show up in the toilet bowl, post back and we'll explore your next option or two, OK?

Mark

hkstroud · Aug 5, 2013, 07:07 PM

if there's no water on the floor than it doesn't have to do with what he did.

That is almost true. Remove the tank lid. Make sure that the little black tube from the fill valve (Fluidmaster 400) is attached to the top of the overflow pipe and not shoved down into the overflow.

jljl · Aug 5, 2013, 07:57 PM

Thanks Mark. I will do that and post back.

Thanks hkstroud, yes the refill tube from the fill valve is attached to the top of the overflow pipe, so I guess I can't blame him... although I don't understand why my flapper would stop working right after he replaced the fill valve :)

hkstroud · Aug 5, 2013, 08:00 PM

Stuff happens.

I don't want Mark beating me up but I check for leaks differently. I hold down the float until the water overflows the overflow pipe. Turn off the stop valve under the toilet. I come back in about 30 minutes. If the water is still at the top of the overflow pipe I don't have a leak. If it has dropped below the top of the overflow pipe I have a leaking flapper.

jljl · Aug 6, 2013, 01:41 PM

Mark, I do see the colored water showing up in the toilet bowl.

hkstroud, I don't see any stop valve on my toilet tank (I have the 400A, https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/plumbi...ve-759536.html, don't see any stop valve on this diagram either). Are you referring to the one that shuts off the water supply (underneath the toilet tank, on the wall)?

So I bought two new flappers and tried each of them (just to be sure), and there's no improvement : ( Is there anything else I can try?

I am really puzzled. If there's no water on the floor it's got to be that "hole" covered by the flapper right? There's really no where else the water can go. I am sure I replaced the flapper correctly, and checked again carefully that the seating looks smooth.

Thanks again for your help! Really appreciate it.

massplumber2008 · Aug 6, 2013, 02:15 PM

Harold's way of checking for leakers is certainly valid... just that the color helps homeowners SEE the issue is the reason I recommend the color dye... ;)

In terms of the leaker at your flapper, Jessie, there are times that a simple flapper replacement will just not work. Here, it could be that the universal flappers you purchased are not compatible to the toilet... would need to find an exact replacement to resolve the issue here (manufacturer specific can be ordered at a local plumbing supply store).

Also, it could be that the entire FLUSH VALVE mechanism needs to be replaced (the valve part that the flapper attaches to).

Finally, some new flappers need a night to seat to the flush valve mechanism, so before you totally give up on the flappers you purchased, let one sit overnight (even if tank runs a bit in between) and see if the flapper seated itself overnight. If not, only solution is to get the plumber back out and have him replace the entire flush valve.

Glad to discuss more if you want...

jljl · Aug 6, 2013, 02:57 PM

Thanks again Mark. Yes I am using a universal flapper. By manufacturer did you mean the manufacturer of the flush valve, or the manufacturer of the tank (e.g. American Standard)? I don't see any name on either of them.

BTW, I took out the old flapper, and it's in perfect condition, so I am starting to worry that it's not the flapper (looks like a big project to replace the flush valve because the entire tank has to be removed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrMi8agdg2I).

Sorry one more question. Is it safe to leave the toilet in its current conditions for a couple of weeks (my concern is things will go bad and start leaking on to the floor)? I will be away for two weeks, and I can't turn off the water supply switch/stop valve.

Thanks.

jljl · Aug 6, 2013, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by jljl

Thanks again Mark. Yes I am using a universal flapper. By manufacturer did you mean the manufacturer of the flush valve, or the manufacturer of the tank (e.g. American Standard)? I don't see any name on either of them.

BTW, I took out the old flapper, and it's in perfect condition, so I am starting to worry that it's not the flapper (looks like a big project to replace the flush valve coz the entire tank has to be removed: How to Fix a Toilet - Flush Valve Replacement - Part 1 of 2 - YouTube).

Sorry one more question. Is it safe to leave the toilet in its current conditions for a couple of weeks (my concern is things will go bad and start leaking on to the floor)? I will be away for two weeks, and I can't turn off the water supply switch/stop valve.

Thanks.

Is it worth it to try this one (http://www.fluidmaster.com/toilet-fl...air-kit.html)? It's not available in my local stores so I need to order it online.

Toilet Flush Valve | Flush Toilet | 5 Minute Toilet Flush Valve Repair Kit

hkstroud · Aug 6, 2013, 04:08 PM

Flush Valve Repair Kit - Repair a Leaking Toilet - Fluidmaster 5 Minute Fix - YouTube

I've always had good luck with these. However, I always dry the old surface where repair kit fits to insure a good seal. Its an easy fix.

massplumber2008 · Aug 6, 2013, 04:10 PM

Yes, I meant specific to the toilet manufacturer... American standard in this case... ;)

Also, note here, that if colored water showed up in the toilet bowl then your issue is the flapper or the flush valve... either one or both, but there is no risk of water dripping/flooding anything, OK?

It is safe to leave things this way, but if you have a strong friend or anyone with basic mechanical skills they should be able to take two pair of pliers and hold the shut off valve in one plier while turning the handle with the other pair of pliers to stop the leaking while you are away.

If that fails, and there is no one available AND there will be no one home while you are gone, I would suggest that you shut off your water main while away. This is ALWAYS a good idea any time you go away for more than a couple days!

jljl · Aug 6, 2013, 09:52 PM

Thanks Harold and Mark for the tips. I will give them a try and post back.

frankiedon53 · Aug 8, 2013, 09:54 AM

It is recommended to turn off water at the mains when being away for long periods anyway, so why not do that and don't worry.

massplumber2008 · Aug 8, 2013, 09:57 AM

Good point, Frankiedon. I pointed the same thing out in post #13 by saying, "If that fails, and there is no one available AND there will be no one home while you are gone, I would suggest that you shut off your water main while away. This is ALWAYS a good idea any time you go away for more than a couple days!"

Thanks!

jljl · Aug 13, 2013, 05:31 PM

Turned out that my problem has to do with the refill tube being too far down into the flush valve. Once I adjusted the refill tube to be above the water level in the tank the problem went away.

I think that's probably what Harold was suggesting me to check in one of his previous posts... but I had misunderstood it. I thought I just needed to make sure that the refill tube wasn't lying around in the tank. Sorry Harold.

But what I don't understand is, the refill tube carries water from the water supply to the tank so isn't the water flow supposed to be one directional. Even if it's "sucking" up the water in the tank, there's no where the water can go right?

Thanks!

hkstroud · Aug 13, 2013, 08:31 PM

OK. You flush. The water from the tank rushes into the bowl. The water in the bowl rises very quickly and overflows the trap that is an integral part of the toilet. That fills the drain pipe with water. That water flowing the drain pipe, pulls all the water in the bowl out. This is called siphoning. That will continue until all the water in the bowl is gone and air is pulled into the drain pipe. While this is happening the tank is refilling. When the fill valve opens, water out of the bottom of the fill valve to refill the tank. Water also flows out the refill tube to the overflow pipe. The water flowing down the overflow pipe flows into the bowl to wash down the sides of the bowl and refill the bowl.

When the fill valve shuts off because the tank is full, if the end of the refill tube is below the water level in the tank, the water in the tube will pull or siphon the water out of the tank until the water level in the tank is equal to the end of the refill tube. If that level is beneath the level where the fill valve comes on again, the fill valve opens and the process begins again.

If you take a container of water, put a pipe or hose in it, laying over the top of the container, fill the hose with water then hold the end of the hose below the top of the water, the water in the down side will be heaver than the water in the up and will flow out. As it flows out it will pull water in the container up and over the top. As that water flow out it will pull more water up and out. This will continue until air can get into the hose and break the vacuum.

This is how as teenagers we use to steal the gas out of each other cars. Stick a hose down the tank, suck on it a couple time. Get a mouth full of gas, hold end of the hose down beneath the tank and drain your tank dry in 5 minutes.

jljl · Aug 14, 2013, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by hkstroud

OK. you flush. The water from the tank rushes into the bowl. The water in the bowl rises very quickly and overflows the trap that is an integral part of the toilet. That fills the drain pipe with water. That water flowing the drain pipe, pulls all the water in the bowl out. This is called siphoning. That will continue until all the water in the bowl is gone and air is pulled into the drain pipe. While this is happening the tank is refilling. When the fill valve opens, water out of the bottom of the fill valve to refill the tank. Water also flows out the refill tube to the overflow pipe. The water flowing down the overflow pipe flows into the bowl to wash down the sides of the bowl and refill the bowl.

When the fill valve shuts off because the tank is full, if the end of the refill tube is below the water level in the tank, the water in the tube will pull or siphon the water out of the tank until the water level in the tank is equal to the end of the refill tube. If that level is beneath the level where the fill valve comes on again, the fill valve opens and the process begins again.

If you take a container of water, put a pipe or hose in it, laying over the top of the container, fill the hose with water then hold the end of the hose below the top of the water, the water in the down side will be heaver than the water in the up and will flow out. As it flows out it will pull water in the container up and over the top. As that water flow out it will pull more water up and out. This will continue until air can get into the hose and break the vacuum.

This is how as teenagers we use to steal the gas out of each other cars. Stick a hose down the tank, suck on it a couple time. Get a mouth full of gas, hold end of the hose down beneath the tank and drain your tank dry in 5 minutes.

I get it now. Thanks so much for the detailed explanations Harold! That's very helpful.