[tomder55]

This week SCOTUS will make rulings on 4 cases that could be historic.

Fisher v. University of Texas
The petitioners argued that racial preferences in admissions to the University of Texas violate the 14 Amendment of the Constitution .The court could make a narrow ruling ,or it could overturn all similar cases in favor of racial preferences.

Shelby County v. Holder
Deals with Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 (VRA). We have discussed this one at length . Does Section 5 violate the 15th Amendement ? The court will decide.

Then there are the 2 cases about homosexual "marriage" .

U.S. v. Windsor
Challenges the legitimacy of the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) .Specifically ;does Sec 3 of DOMA violate the 5th amendment ?

Hollingsworth v. Perry
Will ask if restrictions on homosexual marriages in the states violates the 14th amendment .

[joypulv]

Looks like they just ruled against racial preference. Here's hoping that colleges really have stopped discrimination against non-whites. I think it was a good decision, even though I always have felt that 'affirmative action' was necessary for a time.

[tomder55]

Looks like they just ruled against racial preference. Here's hoping that colleges really have stopped discrimination against non-whites. I think it was a good decision, even though I always have felt that 'affirmative action' was necessary for a time.

Looks like SCOTUS punted on this one.. Next term they will consider 'Schuette v. Coalition to Defend Affirmative Action'. Perhaps then they will make a major ruling .
They sent the Fisher case back to the Fifth Circuit Court with instructions that the appeals court ruled in error .That court ruled that UT Austin had wide latitude in intepreting the decision of SCOTUS in the 'Grutter v. Bollinger' case ,where the court rejected the use of racial quotas; but said that schools could consider race as part of a "holistic" review of a student's application.

[joypulv]

Thanks, I missed all that with just one ear tuned to the TV blurb news.

[tomder55]

Here's hoping that colleges really have stopped discrimination against non-whites. I think it was a good decision, even though I always have felt that 'affirmative action' was necessary for a time.

The 14th amendment Sec 1 was intended to end racial preferences . Whether affirmative action was 'necessary' or not does not change the reality that it violates the very principle of the 14th .

[joypulv]

I always felt uneasy about affirmative action.
I liked it better than handing out reparations. SOMETHING was due.
The Constitution and the Amendments were written sparsely so that they could and would be constantly open to interpretation, as they always have been.
More fundamental rights had been violated for 100 years before the 14th. Some give and take was needed. You can stand by the Constitution without bowing before it.

[speechlesstx]

There is a mechanism for changing the constitution and it isn't via a reinterpretation of the same words. "Equal protection of the laws" is pretty clear.

[tomder55]

I liked it better than handing out reparations. SOMETHING was due.

General Sherman had the right idea 'special field orders #15' aka '40 acres and a mule '.
He had settled 10,000 former slaves on productive lands that they would own ;but Andrew Johnson reversed the order ,and returned the land to the plantation owners.

[joypulv]

General Sherman had the right idea 'special field orders #15' aka '40 acres and a mule '.
He had settled 10,000 former slaves on productive lands that they would own ;but Andrew Johnson reversed the order ,and returned the land to the plantation owners.

There you have it. Sometimes we do have to make up for lost time.

My first ancestor here was a German in 1709, who harvested pitch for Queen Anne's Navy, in exchange for land below Albany that he never got. It was to come out of hundreds of square miles given earlier to a man named Livingston, but Livingston wasn't having any of it, and even tried to get the natives to help, but they helped the starving settlers instead. His descendants are James and Livingston Taylor. I suppose I could claim reparations and then give them to the tribes who helped.

[speechlesstx]

There you have it. Sometimes we do have to make up for lost time.

My first ancestor here was a German in 1709, who harvested pitch for Queen Anne's Navy, in exchange for land below Albany that he never got. It was to come out of hundreds of square miles given earlier to a man named Livingston, but Livingston wasn't having any of it, and even tried to get the natives to help, but they helped the starving settlers instead. His descendants are James and Livingston Taylor. I suppose I could claim reparations and then give them to the tribes who helped.

And meanwhile, my dad who served in the navy faces losing everything - including the farm that's been in the family for decades - to pay for VA nursing home care.

[joypulv]

And meanwhile, my dad who served in the navy faces losing everything - including the farm that's been in the family for decades - to pay for VA nursing home care.

Are VA benefits like Medicare?
I'm sorry he didn't sell/give it to his children 5+ years before.

[tomder55]

Reparations may very well have had their place in 1865 . Special order 15 attempted to penalize the southern landowners who were largely responsible for both the slave trade ,and the rebellion .Sherman wasn't suggesting that Northern farmers surrender any land . Attempts at reparations usually lead to the corruption that was the 'Pigford v. Glickman' settlement .
What would've helped blacks post-Civil War was the so called 'radical reconstruction ' if only it could've lasted . What would've helped blacks would've been SCOTUS not blowing the Plessy v Ferguson decision ,which codified segregation in opposition to the 14th amendment . For that matter , SCOTUS blew the Dred Scott decision too.

[speechlesstx]

Are VA benefits like Medicare?
I'm sorry he didn't sell/give it to his children 5+ years before.

He did what he could, and if anyone deserves the government taking care of them in their time of need it is our vets. But I digress from the subject.

[Tuttyd]

The 14th amendment Sec 1 was intended to end racial preferences . Whether affirmative action was 'necessary' or not does not change the reality that it violates the very principle of the 14th .

Tom, in your haste you forgot to include in you assessment of Section 1 the last bit

";nor deny and persons within its jurisdiction equal protection of the laws."

From the examples you have given, the interpretation seems to be that people who are situated equally should be treated equally. However, " equal protection of the laws" means that if you decide to treat people differently then you need to provide a justification for doing so.

[tomder55]

Tom, in your haste you forgot to include in you assessment of Section 1 the last bit

";nor deny and persons within its jurisdiction equal protection of the laws."

From the examples you have given, the interpretation seems to be that people who are situated equally should be treated equally. However, " equal protection of the laws" means that if you decide to treat people differently then you need to provide a justification for doing so.

Not quite sure what you mean." Equal protection under the law "means what it means . It doesn't mean "except when you decide not to " . Segregation laws were violations of the 14th ;and racial preferences are also ,despite the good intent. Governments do a lot of harm with good intentions .

[tomder55]

Justice Thomas wrote a separate opinion on this case . Here are the highlights :

I write separately to explain that I would overrule Grutter v. Bollinger, 539 U. S. 306 (2003), and hold that a State's use of race in higher education admissions decisions is categorically prohibited by the Equal Protection Clause.

Attaining diversity for its own sake is a nonstarter. As even Grutter recognized, the pursuit of diversity as an end is nothing more than impermissible "racial balancing."... Rather, diversity can only be the means by which the University obtains educational benefits; it cannot be an end pursued for its own sake. Therefore, the educational benefits allegedly produced by diversity must rise to the level of a compelling state interest in order for the program to survive strict scrutiny.

It is also noteworthy that, in our desegregation cases, we rejected arguments that are virtually identical to those advanced by the University today. The University asserts, for instance, that the diversity obtained through its discriminatory admissions program prepares its students to become leaders in a diverse society... The segregationists likewise defended segregation on the ground that it provided more leadership opportunities for blacks.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions...1-345_l5gm.pdf

Expect at least another decision today. The court has 6 more cases to complete before the term is up.

[Tuttyd]

not quite sure what you mean." Equal protection under the law "means what it means . It doesn't mean "except when you decide not to " . Segregation laws were violations of the 14th ;and racial preferences are also ,despite the good intent. Governments do alot of harm with good intentions .

"Means what it means" is a tautology. This seems to be something like the line Thomas is pushing when he talks about ends being pursued for their own sake. However, I would like to address Thomas' quotes in detail a bit later.

Equal protection "under the law" must be different to equal protection "of the laws". If it were the same thing then there would be no need to add. "nor deny any persons....equal protection of the laws".

If you make a law that everyone will be treated equally it will always be the case that some will be treated more equally than others. This situation usually comes about by circumstances.

Protection of the laws means that there exists a provision for protecting people from inequalities that come about when you try enforce equality. Another way of saying this could be that processes of law protect people from the unfairness of government legislation. This working in two ways is one point that Thomas seems to miss.

[tomder55]

Well then what you are saying is that there was no constitutional basis for the reversal of Plessy in 'Brown v Board of Education '. However ,there is case load going back to the 1891Caldwell v. Texas case where equal protection ,or equal justice have been used in the decision interpreting what is now commonly called the 'Equal Protection Clause ' of the 14th .

Chief Justice Melville Fuller wrote in the Caldwell v Texas case the following, regarding the Fourteenth Amendment: "the powers of the States in dealing with crime within their borders are not limited, but no State can deprive particular persons or classes of persons of equal and impartial justice under the law."

[Tuttyd]

well then what you are saying is that there was no constitutional basis for the reversal of Plessy in 'Brown v Board of Education '. However ,there is case load going back to the 1891Caldwell v. Texas case where equal protection ,or equal justice have been used in the decision interpreting what is now commonly called the 'Equal Protection Clause ' of the 14th .

Chief Justice Melville Fuller wrote in the Caldwell v Texas case the following, regarding the Fourteenth Amendment: "the powers of the States in dealing with crime within their borders are not limited, but no State can deprive particular persons or classes of persons of equal and impartial justice under the law."

I am not saying that at all.

Where am I arguing for separate educational institutions?

Where am I arguing against equal justice under the law?

[tomder55]

Then what exactly are you saying ? Frankly it sounds like an academic debating exercise .
Seems like we are counting the angels on a pin trying to determine the nuiances between equal protection of the law and equal protection under the law. The phrases have been interchangeable since John Bingham drafted the Equal Protection Clause and mean the same thing.