[ahrenl]

I had a local electrician come in a do some work for me that entailed the following.

Install two overhead lights to existing lightswitch. Crawl space above ceiling readibly accessible. This was probably the most difficult thing I asked them to do. Wired to existing wiring.

Install two closet lights. The closets backed into the unfinished attic area, so you could literally just reach up and plop them in from outside. These were pull chain flourscents. Again they used a splice from existing wiring.

Extended power to an electric heater which we had moved 3 feet. Added a 3 foot power cord.

Install appliance plug. This required running a new line to the basement, which took about 120'. Again the outside of the walls were all very accessible, so they didn't even need to snake anything. They added a new breaker to the box.

Install standard plug. This was literally splicing a plug from one side of a hollow wall, to another.

Install standard plug. For this they had to splice off a kitchen plug, run it through a drop ceiling and into our cabinets. This was for the range hood. Standard fan and light, nothing fancy.

Hang light on existing box. They did this because they were first going to investigate weather they could splice a new light in the adjoining room off the existing light.

They charged me $400 for supplies, which I'm perfectly fine with. How long do you think this would take? How much do you think you would charge someone in labor for this? The only snaking required was when they snaked down the central hollow wall for the overhead lights to the existing switches. They had an assumedly master electrician, and apprentice there the whole time, although they told me they only needed two people for the overhead lights, which they did first. They were right on that, as the apprentice just stood around and occasionaly left to fetch diet cokes for the rest of the time.

Thanks all.

[tkrussell]

Sounds like two men, actually working about 4-6 hours. Cost in dollars is too difficult to provide due to different markets and overhead cost, two men in Chicago will be more costly than in small town USA.

Dispute the apprentice standing around and not actually working, or at least helping with setting up, getting tools and materials.

Next time, ask for a firm quote for a fixed price for a clear scope of work.

[ahrenl]

Sounds like two men, actually working about 4-6 hours. Cost in dollars is too difficult to provide due to different markets and overhead cost, two men in Chicago will be more costly than in small town USA.

Dispute the apprentice standing around and not actually working, or at least helping with setting up, getting tools and materials.

Next time, ask for a firm quote for a fixed price for a clear scope of work.

Heh, well 4-6 hours is what I was looking for. I live near Boston, so I'd bet cost is close to Chicago, if not more. That besides the point they charged me 23 hours X 2. The apprentice standing around getting diet cokes was billed at $52/hr. I asked for quotes every single time I met with and every day they were here. They kept saying yep, and they never called me back once. Just sent a bill a week later.

Suffice to say $3,200 to install 4 lights, and 3 plugs seems a little high to me.

Not to mention they didn't exactly do a spectacular job. My breaker panel is still lying on the basement floor, god knows where the bolts are, they tore out some old wiring during the appliance line install and left it hanging from the ceiling. They mistakenly half cut one socket install into the wall, then stopped and cut a different hole. Finally, the one part they actually did a pretty good job on, the overhead lights, they punched out the wall around the switch by accident, which was brand new.

I have placed another call to them listing some of my grievances in a very civil manner, if they don't call me back this time, I'll truncate their bill till they do. Fortunately I haven't paid them a dime. Not giving any pricing up front works both ways after all.

[tkrussell]

Unbelievable! 46 man hours? Even if I was off because of difficulties they had,and it took two men a day would only be 16 manhours.

It is good you have not paid any upfront money, and none so far.

Take photos of the work and any damage done, to be prepared for litigation.

Was a permit taken out?

You may consider having them take you to court, of course, better you send them correspondence to begin documenting your case.

Allowing them on site and the work to be done without a quote will be your responsibility, and one hurdle to get around.

Did they ask for signatures on a detailed daily work sheet each visit? This may help you if not. Hell, how do you know they did not guess at the manhours, with out you signing a daily ticket stating the manhours spent each day?

If you get beyond settling this, you may ask another contractor to work up an estimate for the work done. There are established labor units for all materials, by NECA , Means, several other estimating systems. This will help established what the labor should have been, or at least get very close to use as a guideline to compare what the job did take in reported labor.

[ahrenl]

No, there is no paper work at all. Nothing to prove they were even here in fact. They haven't returned my calls, or the calls of others who are well acquainted with them, so we'll see what happens next week. I'm hoping the business owners, who may not have seen this bill, will realize they've way over charged me and cut it back. Otherwise I plan on sending them payment for their materials and half their cost of labor. I'll include a letter explaining the situation, and they'll be free to take me to small claims court if they want. Frankly I don't think a judge will have difficultly seeing close to $2,000 payment for this job, which should have been half that, as unfair payment, especially since no price was agreed to up front.

I could just claim that they said they were doing it as a favor, and I didn't think they were going to charge me at all.. :)

Thanks for your replies, it really helped. My wife was saying we'll probably end up just paying the $3,200, and I was even considering agreeing with her, until I really started to think about it.

Hey tkrussel, you're in New England? Which part? If you're close, and it becomes necessary, would you take a consulting fee to drive down and give an estimate on the work that was done? Thanks.

[tkrussell]

Good I like your plan, again take lots of pictures of all the work that was done, and the damage done. Even the cost of buying a new digital camera will pay for itself if the photos will help in court, which I don't think will be necessary.

46 hours for this is absolutely ridiculous. I can rough in a 6 room home with 2 car garage AND a basement in 46 hours,alone.(I hate diet coke).

Hmmm no paperwork huh? What electricians? Never saw any electrician here.

What dopes, they don't even try to protect their interests.

Ayuh, right here in New England, about 2 and a half hours from Bean Town. And for a fee I'll make in two.

Keep us posted with how things work out.

[ahrenl]

Good I like your plan, again take lots of pictures of all the work that was done, and the damage done. Even the cost of buying a new digital camera will pay for itself if the photos will help in court, which I don't think will be necessary.

46 hours for this is absolutely ridiculous., I can rough in a 6 room home with 2 car garage AND a basement in 46 hours,alone.(I hate diet coke).

Hmmm no paperwork huh? What electricians? Never saw any electrician here.

What dopes, they don't even try to protect their interests.

Ayuh, right here in New England, bout 2 and a half hours from Bean Town. And for a fee I'll make in two.

Keep us posted with how things work out.

Hey tkrussell, can you point me to where I would find the NECA etc. standardized unit labor hours? Thanks.

[ceilingfanrepair]

Good I like your plan, again take lots of pictures of all the work that was done, and the damage done. Even the cost of buying a new digital camera will pay for itself if the photos will help in court, which I don't think will be necessary.

46 hours for this is absolutely ridiculous., I can rough in a 6 room home with 2 car garage AND a basement in 46 hours,alone.(I hate diet coke).

Hmmm no paperwork huh? What electricians? Never saw any electrician here.

What dopes, they don't even try to protect their interests.

Ayuh, right here in New England, bout 2 and a half hours from Bean Town. And for a fee I'll make in two.

Keep us posted with how things work out.

See this is why I like TK.

I didn't see any electricians there, either.

[tkrussell]

Sorry I don't think they are available free on line, I tried but unable to find anything free. Best I can suggest is try a library or a book store for any electrical estimating book, as most follow the NECA units.

[ahrenl]

Good I like your plan, again take lots of pictures of all the work that was done, and the damage done. Even the cost of buying a new digital camera will pay for itself if the photos will help in court, which I don't think will be necessary.

46 hours for this is absolutely ridiculous., I can rough in a 6 room home with 2 car garage AND a basement in 46 hours,alone.(I hate diet coke).

Hmmm no paperwork huh? What electricians? Never saw any electrician here.

What dopes, they don't even try to protect their interests.

Ayuh, right here in New England, bout 2 and a half hours from Bean Town. And for a fee I'll make in two.

Keep us posted with how things work out.

Well I'm not sure it turned out as a victory, but it was certainly a compromise that worked. Essentially we agreed to disagree.

On our first conversation they agreed to half the "helper"s hours, which reduced the bill $600's to $2,600. I told them I would call them back.

That night I was able to finally get in contact with my uncle, who is a developer in the Worcester area. He pointed out that he gets an entire 1,000sqft house completely wired for $3,200, new panel and all. Then he pointed out that they had taken out no permits, and had no signed work orders with hours or wages included, and that they really didn't have much of a legal leg to stand on. This made me feel better.

The next day they called back and I expressed our position that had any quote come in above $1,600 in the first place we would have walked away. I offered a compromise: if they were willing to meet us half way from our max of $1,600 and their offer of $2,600, we could put it behind us as an expensive lesson learned. They agreed to $2,000, so the check is in the mail.

Thanks all for your help, it's hard to feel good about the outcome, as I still feel over-charged; but I do want to pay for the work that was done, which wasn't unsatisfactory, and I'd rather not leave bad feelings with a local contactor, who also has other affiliations in the community. Still I think the entire thing would have turned out better for everyone with better communication on both our parts.

Thanks again!