[Wondergirl]

no the economy that taxes to bribe the people falls apart

Huh? Who taxes us? We tax us.

[tomder55]

No we elect the morons

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury.

Alexander Fraser Tytler

[talaniman]

The problem is we forgot the mission, to form a more perfect union. Now the mission is getting rich by any means necessary.

[paraclete]

The problem is we forgot the mission, to form a more perfect union. Now the mission is getting rich by any means necessary.

No Tal you forgot to move on from the eighteenth century thinking, a more perfect union was important, even essential then, but what is the use of a man standing up every year and reporting the union is strong when it is falling apart at the most essential level.

I agree with you that the essential that the rich get richer by all means necessary has been with you from the beginning, it is why slavery wasn't stopped when the rest of the civilised world stopped it and it is why your economy can't recover today. You do not have the primary objective of lifting all your people out of poverty, only those who can lift themselves, because in reality you think poverty is something that happens to someoneelse

[tomder55]

http://www.hoover.org/publications/d...6286]Democracy

[Tuttyd]

Democracy

I think this is a reasonable argument for for how representative democracy has been replaced by ruling elites. However, I would have thought that in order for a society to suffer from, "Democracy's Death-by-Welfare, such a society would need to be democratic in the first place.

You are right about the economy that taxes in order to bribe falls apart. In exactly the same way an economy that taxes the people in order to provide for corporate welfare will also fall apart. Don't blame any of this on democracy.

[tomder55]

I think this is a reasonable argument for for how representative democracy has been replaced by ruling elites. However, I would have thought that in order for a society to suffer from, "Democracy's Death-by-Welfare, such a society would need to be democratic in the first place.

You are right about the economy that taxes in order to bribe falls apart. In exactly the same way an economy that taxes the people in order to provide for corporate welfare will also fall apart. Don't blame any of this on democracy.

The founders were wary of democracy and tried to add safeguards into the Constitution to prevent the very situation we find ourselves in today. The social democratic model is unsustainable .You know it and I know it . Eventually you run out of other people's money .

[Tuttyd]

The founders were wary of democracy and tried to add safeguards into the Constitution to prevent the very situation we find ourselves in today. The social democratic model is unsustainable .You know it and I know it . Eventually you run out of other people's money .

By "social democratic model", I assume you mean the corporate and public welfare model. The model that also includes unproductive people and unproductive elites of society.

Is this the model you are referring to?

[tomder55]

Fabianism

[Tuttyd]

Fabianism

So I can take that as a yes?

[paraclete]

Of course Tom thinks fabianism is socialism, he may be right and if you scratch Obama you might find a fabianist he has been to the right schools, We had one lead the country once, what a disaster that turned out to be, the whole country went though reconstruction and industry fled offshore. This could be why US industries haven't come back they smell a fabianista in the White House

[Tuttyd]

It's not unusual in certain circles to pass off corporatism as Fabianism.

[paraclete]

It's not unusual in certain circles to pass off corporatism as Fabianism.

By corporatism you mean state ownership of the means of production, well Obama has found an excuse for some of that

[Tuttyd]

by corporatism you mean state ownership of the means of production, well Obama has found an excuse for some of that

More accurately I mean neo-corporatism. I call it political corporatism. In economic terms it basically means an arrangement with corporations, labour and the state to create an economy. Although it can mean more than just economics


In short the creation of ruling elites. It is this system of ruling elites that creates the real problems for democracy, not necessarily the types of problems highlighted in the article Tom posted previously.

[talaniman]

by corporatism you mean state ownership of the means of production, well Obama has found an excuse for some of that

You mean a bailout? Those companies can always buy back their government held stocks. But it's a sham to say the US is a Democracy, or a Republic.

It's a old European style government where the few control the many for profit. The names have been changed to protect the wealthy.

[paraclete]

More accurately I mean neo-corporatism. I call it political corporatism. In economic terms it basically means an arrangement with corporations, labour and the state to create an economy. Although it can mean more than just economics


In short the creation of ruling elites. It is this system of ruling elites that creates the real problems for democracy, not necessarily the types of problems highlighted in the article Tom posted previously.

Yes Bob Hawke did that sort of thing here with his consensus. Fabians originally were for a sort of creaping reform although they did do some radical things like universal health care where as socialists tend to more radical reforms. The US certainly seems to have problems with ruling elites and the corporations that are behind the lobbys. Think about having to deal with 30,000 lobbyists. Britain the home of Fabianism seemed to have a different problem with ruling elites, this is why the fabians tried to reform the house of Lords

[smoothy]

And what blabbering idiot would TRUST the IRS to run Obamacare after the recent illegal activities they have been caught in... passing on private a dn confidential personal and tax information to Liberal activists in ProPublica BY IRS employees at the order of their managers.

Its even worse... Pro Publica... a leftist ProObama organizations was improperly and illegally given private and confidential details from 31 Conservative groups Tax return documents by Obama operatives working inside the IRS.

And they admit it themselves BEFORE it came out during an investigation.

Obama and the heads of the IRS need to go to jail... as well as any other person involved or that had knowledge of these crimes at the IRS.

IRS Office That Targeted Tea Party Also Disclosed Confidential Docs From Conservative Groups - ProPublica

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...to-propublica/

[talaniman]

The tea party groups have taken credit for electing many people to the congress on the state level and that has thrown the fear of god into republicans during there primaries. So how does a political organization even qualify for a special tax status as a social welfare organization?

How do we know Karl Rove isn't behind all these groups popping up in record numbers to hide and funnel money to right wing candidates trying to destroy the government? I don't remember any repubs raising hell when they pulled the same thing in 2000 and 2004.

GOP hysteria over IRS

Despite the extra scrutiny that delayed the groups receiving their tax exempt status, there is no evidence that any right wing or Tea Party groups were denied approval. The only group that did not get tax exempt was a Democratic group. That seems to weaken the case that the scrutiny was designed to help Barack Obama.

During the 2004 campaign, the IRS audited the NAACP after its president, Julian Bond, spoke against the Iraq War and George Bush at the organization's convention. Democrats questioned the audit but Republicans found no concern let alone outrage.

In addition, the IRS tried to revoke the tax exempt status of a California church when a visiting speaker spoke out against the Iraq War. Democrats in Congress raised the issue but no Republicans found any outrage.

Selective memory, selective outrage, selective facts. Distractions to NOT do the people work.

[tomder55]

How do we know Karl Rove isn't behind all these groups popping up in record numbers to hide and funnel money to right wing candidates trying to destroy the government?

Well for one thing Rove and the Bushies hate the Tea Party .Rove is very much of the Republic insider club.

Despite the extra scrutiny that delayed the groups receiving their tax exempt status, there is no evidence that any right wing or Tea Party groups were denied approval. The only group that did not get tax exempt was a Democratic group. That seems to weaken the case that the scrutiny was designed to help Barack Obama.

Eric Holder is launching a criminal investigation .Why don't you stop being an apologist and admit that this is an over the top terrible thing for any agency to be doing ,let alone the most powerful bureaucracy in government .

Your two isolated examples (and I'll look into them later ) are nothing compared to what appears to be a systemic attempt to intimidate and deny political organizations from their legitimate role in a democracy . Who does the Emperor think he is ? Hugo Chavez ?

[smoothy]

I say if heads DON'T roll including Obamas... when we get a president we do the same thing to EVERY Liberal group out there... after all they are arguing its nothing bad... so they will be fine when we do it to them, lets see how they like it happening then, and tossing their same argument back at them when they scream bloody Murder..