[Ousman]

Asalamu laekum
I want to know something -- the Trinity that the Christians talk about, especially the Holy Spirit. They say it's not Gabriel but another god. Please tell me in detail so that I can convince my fellow Muslims who this is.
Jazakallah

[Alty]

I'm having a very hard time understanding what you're trying to ask. Can you re-write it so it's clearer?

[Wondergirl]

The Christian God has three "aspects" or Persons --- God the Father who created everything, God the Son who died to take away sins, and God the Holy Spirit who helps us have faith and is with us to help us give love and service to others.

[joypulv]

Not all Christians (such as Unitarians) are trinitarians, although most are, and I would guess that many recite 'Father, Son, and Holy Spirit' without much thought about those three being all God.
Trinity is a Latin word, but the first recorded use of the concept of a triad (group of 3) was in Greek by Theophilus of Antioch about 170 years after the birth of Christ. He wrote
"In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity [Τριάδος], of God, and His Word (λόγος or logos), and His wisdom (σοφίᾱ or sophia)."
It wasn't until about 200 years after that that the Trinity was described as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

(In my Episcopal church when I was a child we recited 'Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,' and I had no idea what the Holy Ghost meant, and was scared.)

I imagine that early Christian theologians were struggling with convincing people (other than Jews) around Italy and Greece of the concept of one god. People who had countless gods and goddesses, household gods, gods for every part of daily life.

[Fr_Chuck]

The Holy Spirit is not a person and not "another God" it is considered a part of God, a role or part of the entire God.

Less concern over the Holy Spirit and more dicussion of Christ, since until they accept Christ as the Lord and Savior, how the Holy Spirit fits into this , is just a subject for argurement.

There is no real way to explain this to a person who is Muslim since they see it as a false religion and a false God.

[dwashbur]

Christianity has only one God. But we see him existing in three distinct personages: father, son and holy spirit. One God, three distinct manifestations. Those of us who have devoted our lives to understanding the Christian Bible don't pretend to comprehend how it works, but there are places where the Bible clearly calls all three personages "God" while still affirming that there is only one God. I can only speak for myself: I see the idea clearly taught in the Bible, so I accept it. But I don't pretend to comprehend it.

[Athos]

But if we sin against the Holy Spirit we will not be forgiven in this life nor the one to come.

What, exactly, is that sin?

[dwashbur]

Theologians have been asking that question for centuries, and nobody can agree on the answer.

[JoeT777]

Theos, Logos, Sophia

Trinity is the word used to define three Persons having one essesnece or nature yet so perfectly joined they are said to be consubstantial ('of the same substance' in Greek it is homoousios) Trias is first heard in Theophilus of Antioch in Autolycus, book II in his description of the 'luminaries' and creation by "God, and His Word, and His wisdom." At about the same period Tertullian writes, "For the very Church itself is, properly and principally, the Spirit Himself, in whom is the Trinity of the One Divinity— Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (The Spirit) combines that Church which the Lord has made to consist in three." Both Tertullian and Theophilus pass what was given to them from the Apostles to the next generation; a belief in One God, three Persons, and One faith. The issue was settled in the orthodoxy of the Church long before the Nicene Council. St. Athanasius sums the rudiments of the Catholic faith in one Creed. Predominate is the Trinity "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God."

One cannot compass about God's essence, assuredly no Catholic except the first Catholic daughter and the New Adam ever compassed God. The essence of God can not be known except for those things He reveals. He exists in eternity and it is said "Eternity is nothing else but God Himself" St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, I, 10, 2. 3.

The Holy Spirit is a distinct Person who proceeds from the Father and the Son. Since God is one substance the Holy Spirit is said to proceed from both Father and Son. Scripturally we find the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, knowledge and wisdom (Sophia) See John 14:16-17; 15:26. The Isaiah said, "the light of Israel shall be for a fire." (Isaiah 10:17) It is "a spirit wise and discerning, a spirit prudent and strong, a spirit of knowledge and of piety" (Isaiah 11:2). The graces we receive from the Holy Spirit are prudence, fortitude, knowledge and piety.

Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report , full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business [Acts 6:3]

The Monarchians believed that the Trintiy was only nominal with each of the Persons described as their operations or manifestations. The Arians denied God was one substance and that Christ was subordinate to the Father. Others
Erred in holding that there are three Divinities, each a separate substance and a separate nature.

[Riot]

Less concern over the Holy Spirit and more dicussion of Christ

I kind of disagree, there is very little discussion about the Holy Spirit these days anyway and I think there should be more emphasis on it, since the Holy Spirit is the one who Jesus talked about the coming of and how the Spirit lives in the world today.
The teaching of Jesus is important but so is the role the Spirit plays in the church today (which is often overlooked)

[john myers]

Simple: God is the creator. Jesus is the son of God and is also God... he God is Jesus in the flesh. We read in The BIBLE JOHN 1:1 "IN THE BENNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD AND THE WORD BECAME FLESH." NOW... Jesus is the Lord and when he walked the Earth he taught us his ways and how to live life by truth. NOW after his death came THE HOLY SPIRIT THOUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS ALWAYS THERE. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS JESUS AND GOD. WHICH LEAD US AND GUIDE US TO LIVE AND HAVE A HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR HEAVENLY FATHER. FATHER SPIRIT SON THREE IN ONE

[JoeT777]

What, exactly, is that sin?

Theologians have been asking that question for centuries, and nobody can agree on the answer.

Actually there are three responses to the question of 'what is the act against the Holy Spirit not forgiven'. Each nearly equal and all of them are within the pale of orthodoxy. I think all of them revolve around choosing evil or consciously working against God's good for evil's sake. The 'unforgivable' rests in seeking to remain in a state of privation and a rejection of God's charity.

One school of thought has the 'unforgivable' being a certain contempt for the Holy Spirit, it would seem that such a sin would lack fear of God and be 'malice' toward the Holy Spirit.

Another group of seem to suggest that the 'unforgivable' occurs blasphemy in identifying God's good as evil or the work of devil.

The third and my favorite is St. Augustine's sense of the 'unforgivable' by way saying, "He has an unclean spirit". [Cf. Mark 3:30]. Which is to unabashedly persevere in sin as opposed to faith. It's not what is uttered so much as the unclean spirit that motivated the act. The impertinence that seeks evil and not God.

JoeT

[hauntinghelper]

Could this, then, be a reference as to why demons appear to be an unforgiven spirit race? They operate continually in blasphemy against God? Something I have never actually thought about to be honest... hmmm...

[JoeT777]

The unforgivable sin:

Could this, then, be a reference as to why demons appear to be an unforgiven spirit race? They operate continually in blasphemy against God? Something I have never actually thought about to be honest....hmmm....

I do indeed think that demons and devils are the unforgivable race, but then again I don't know a lot about the attributes of demons and devils except that they are repulsed by Mary. I make a point of staying away. However, we are able to look in a mirror or at our neighbors to observe the nature of men.

I think it was St. Augustine's journey looking for the source of evil that best described evil in men. He found that evil was not something added to man rather it was privation of original justice [a state not requiring Salvation]. St. Thomas explains this state best; in men after Adam God withheld original justice which "united the will to God, produced an overflowing of perfection into other powers, namely, that knowledge of truth enlightened the intellect, and that the irascible and concupiscible appetites received direction from reason." [Cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo]

Thus through the act of one man we in ignorance we are born without fear of God and we find only Baptism provides salvific grace. Baptism, at least in part, reinstates a portion of original justice although with ignorance and concupiscence still hampered necessitating the graces of salvation.

Original Sin is that men are born without the fear of God and without trust in God, is to be entirely rejected, since it is manifest to every Christian that to be without the fear of God and without trust in God is rather the actual guilt of an adult than the offence of a recently-born infant, which does not possess as yet the full use of reason, as the Lord says "Your children which had no knowledge between good and evil," Deut 1:39. (Johann Eck, The Confutatio Pontificia, 1530)

Sin has been characterized as a war against God. I would suggest that the unforgivable sin is deliberately turning away from God's charity and continuing the war of sin. The unforgivable are effectively storming heaven by the power of their will with the same malice and impertinence of a warrior seeking to unseat God's good and establish our own evil.

JoeT

[classyT]

HH.

Interesting thought and it makes sense too.

The difference for man is that Jesus died for us... he didn't for demons. Not sure there would ever be forgiveness granted to demon spirits.

The only unforgivable sin is rejecting Jesus as savior which is why I believe that is what it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

JoeT,

Just to clarify... do you believe even believers can be guilty of the unpardonable sin?

[dwashbur]

As Joe pointed out, there are several different ideas about what this "sin" is, and we really have no idea which is correct, or if any of them are. The passages in question are so vague that they're open to a myriad of interpretations. My philosophy is, if you're worried you might have done it, you haven't. If you really had, you wouldn't care. So I suspect that most all of us are reasonably safe!

[classyT]

Dave,

Thing is this has driven a lot of Christians kind of crazy with fear. I mean I heard a pastor say when he was younger he was just sure he had committed this sin. I am SURE the Lord Jesus wouldn't want anyone in fear and torment over this. So I DO believe we can know what it is and there is NO WAY a believer in the Lord could commit it... once saved, always saved. That is my story and I am sticking to it. I believe there is enough scripture to back that up.

The only thing that sends someone to hell this side of the cross is not accepting the Lord Jesus as savior. Best I can tell. I would be willing to believe that blaspheming the HS during the Lord's ministry would be rejecting him as their messiah and walking away in unbelief when he performed miracles. But then again it all comes back to believing who Jesus is. I don't see any way around it. I know I know... you don't like my theology. BUT... I don't like how you think the bible leaves so much up in the air. I think the Lord can and does reveal things that are hard to understand to those who diligently seek him. Am I wrong?

[Wondergirl]

once saved, always saved.

I don't go with that. Christians have free will, and life circumstances might cause someone to turn his back on God. (I think you and I have been down this road before.)

[classyT]

WG

Jesus said:I will NEVER leave you or forsake you. Either he paid for ALL of my sins or he didn't. If he didn't... Yes I can lose my salvation... if he did, I can't. Is it a sin to leave the Lord?YES! But the bible says he paid for ALL of my sins. I used my free will to accept him. I am IN him, he is IN me and I am hidden in God.
If someone denies satan is real does that automatically mean he isn't under his influence and still under his bondage?
He exercised his free will to NOT believe there is a Satan. Does Satan have more power than God? Naaah... I can leave him but he won't leave me. AND the Holy Spirit will woo me back. I don't think many true Christians turn their backs and stay that way the rest of their lives. But even if they did... HE is faithful. What a savior!

[Wondergirl]

I used my free will to accept him.

And we can use that same free will to reject Him.