[NeedKarma]

I think it has more to do with there being a lot of desperate or angry or mentally ill people in the US. Once they get their hands on guns the damage they can inflict multiplies rapidly.

[cdad]

There is no conflict between free will andGod's plan . Our having free will was always part of God's plan . That is what the tree in Eden represented ...a choice. God did not compel Adam and Eve to either eat of the tree or obey God's law . They screwed up and faced the consequences. I ask how do I benefit if God were to compel me ? How would we be any different than a household pet ;or a slave ?
Free will is a gift from God. If that means we allow make bad choices and allow evil in our heart ,it does not stand to reason that the course we take is part of God's plan.It is up to us to use God's gifts to the best of our ability ;and if we stray ,to accept the responsibility as ours alone.

I can't help it if Clete intentionally misread my comment . I'll say it again.for God to truly get rid of evil God would have to censor all of our thoughts and actions and thus eliminate free will.(sorta like what Clete would do banning guns ,banning certain violent movies ,banning certain types of speech and thoughts ) .

*** Greenie ***

[cdad]

I am deeply saddened by this as are most others. My feeling is it is not about gun control nor mental illness. We have had those issues/rights for a long time. What is now shifting us as humans to this violence? Why are we killing so much more now than before? I have no answers just lots of questions.Heading on over to the other thread to talk about the tragedy just wanted to put my two cents in this thread and keep the other one as a memorial thread.

I have an answer. But it's a bitter pill to swallow. Its called being PC. It needs to stop. It is ruining us as a world at our very core. We need to go back to responsibility and consequences. Those lessons taught to us when we were little. Yeah you know like getting a spanking or a time out. Losing at some game you played with your friends. Those little lessons when you were growing up that helped you when you spread your wings to participate in the world.

In today's world of PC we see the coddling of humanity in such a way that it is believed that a blanket or protection as well as nonfailure is something that is good. It is not. There are lessons to learn from losing and from participating in activities that have risk. We all experienced them unless your below a certain age.

Stop drinking the koolade and start with a reality check for the children.

[Wondergirl]

I have an answer. But it's a bitter pill to swallow. Its called being PC. It needs to stop. It is ruining us as a world at our very core. We need to go back to responsibility and consequences.

I totally agree. And less focus on "rights."

There are lessons to learn from losing and from participating in activities that have risk.

And every team and team member doesn't end up with a prize or a trophy just because they participated. And a student doesn't pass the composition test because he at least wrote down something, even if it was his Christmas list. And so on.

[cdad]

I totally agree. And less focus on "rights."

To me the focus on rights needs to be shifted. By that I mean to not allow superior rights to anyone or any class of people.

For example. Why ban hate speech? If those people that choose to hate speak openly then they can be indentified for who they are and can be avoided and debated openly. The public at large can be the judge of it. There are many other restrictive rights that have been given out through the years that had good intention of protecting someone or something but they in fact have produced the oppisite effect. We need to review and evaluate what has been done so we can move forward.

[mogrann]

I am not sure if allowing people to spew hate speech is a good thing. My concern would be would it be okay in the work place, would it just be speech that is okay? With jobs as they are many people would be stuck not able to leave a job full of people spewing venom. I do see how public opinion could be used against the person but would people really speak up and say You are a jerk for saying that?

[J_9]

Sorry I haven't figured out how to copy & paste on my Kindle.

Excon... about the gun shows... Form 4473 is required for all purchases at gun shows as well as gun shops. The ONLY exception would be a privare sale between two private individuals.

[paraclete]

Don't know if Clete will follow this thred here. But I can't let this go without comment:



.

Yes Tom I did find this thread despite a link that didn't work. You keep missing the point about the gun issue and it may be a knife issue too for all I know, but it is about weapons in the general community and a level of responsibility that goes beyond individual rights. This is just one of many incidents where automatic weapons have been used to kill kids and innocent people in larger numbers, these are not situations of an individual murder.

I have no doubt that after that bombing you mention, ammonium nitrate became very regulated and hard to obtain despite it being an isolated incident, but has any action been taken to stop the slaughter using automatic weapons? no your politicians are cowered at the thought of offending the gun lobby.. You can cliam tradition and you can claim constitutional rights but what about the right to life, to not be killed and maimed because someone can't get it together. You claim this fellow had to relaod, well just as well or he would have killed more but I think you avoid the issue, the weapons he used were capable of concealment and he went to the school intending to kill more than one person.

I offer you the experience of what happened in my nation after an incident like this. Our leaders were courageous enough to ban these weapons and remove them from the community, hundreds of thousands were removed. This by no means means that all weapons have been removed from the community, but military and automatic weapons and large bladed weapons have have. There has not been another incident in the years that followed and the use of such weapons in crime has fallen dramatically. Further the quality of our democracy has not been diminished.

I can also offer you my life experience where inappropriate use of guns has been an issue. This incident hits very close to home reviving memories that are better left alone. My house was part of a siege where my teen age son stole weapons and went on a rampage. You cannot prevent people obtaining weapons in such situations while the weapons remain in the community, if the measures that were later put in place following the Port Arthur incident had been in place he may not have been able to do what he did.

The right to life transcends all other rights. Your nation has an opportunity right at this moment to stop the madness and remove certain weapons from the community. It will not stop hunting, those doing the hunting will have to become more proficient, but you are not allowed weapons under the constitution so you can hunt. You are allowed weapons for a specific purpose, a purpose which is fulfilled in your national guard and your military in a way that wasn't available to your forebears. It will not stop you from owning weapons for personal protection, once you have satisfied criteria that allows you to own weapons but your constitution doesn't allow you weapons for personal protection but for a specific purpose. Be courageous Tom

[J_9]

Funny your misinterpretation of automatic weapons. No automatic weapon was used in this shooting. One must be in possession of a FFL level 3 at least, to possess an automatic weapon. That costs, if I remember correctly when we got our FFL,approximately $5,000 along with a much deeper background check.

[excon]

Hello again, J:

From Wikipedia... "...individuals "not engaged in the business" of dealing firearms, or who only make "occasional" sales within their state of residence, are under no requirement to conduct background checks on purchasers or maintain records of sale (although even private sellers are forbidden under federal law from selling firearms to persons they have reason to believe are felons or otherwise prohibited from purchasing firearms)".

excon

[J_9]

You know I don't consider wiki a reliable source. But with that said... that would be for private individuals making private sales.

[odinn7]

In PA, private sales of handguns have to be done at a sheriffs office or at a licensed gun shop so the proper forms can be filled out and the background check can be run. This is so in many states. So, the Wiki article is misleading. As it reads, it is correct but it fails to state that even though the private seller is not required to do those things, the transfer must be made at a legal location and there the work is done. This is not a federal law but is governed by individual states.

Also, I hate the scare tactics used by many. The term "Automatic Weapon" and "Assault Rifle" is thrown around way too much. Truth is, there were no automatic weapons used at that shooting. Truth is, most of the general population does not have and cannot afford to own a true automatic. But if you say that a shooting was done with an automatic weapon, it sounds much scarier than saying it was done with semi auto handguns.

[Wondergirl]

My husband goes to the monthly gun show at the county fair grounds and says there are always guys walking around with guns slung over their shoulders and strapped to their belts, are selling them privately to other attendees. No FOID card is needed, nor is a background check.

[odinn7]

On rifles, no background check is needed. On handguns, it depends on your state.

[cdad]

My husband goes to the monthly gun show at the county fair grounds and says there are always guys walking around with guns slung over their shoulders and strapped to their belts, are selling them privately to other attendees. No FOID card is needed, nor is a background check.

That is true about many gun shows. And as always there is a but to the story. I know from other dealers what has happened in the past. Many people have bought unknowingly stolen guns. If it is ever taken in for anything from being traded in to repairs the gun is confiscated and when possible returned to the original owner. Every gun sold at a gun store is checked through the registry so the chances of buying a "bad" gun are slim when dealing with reputable dealers.

Yes many do sell privatly and in most cases it is a win win but there at the gun shows your really taking your chances.

Here is an site for people that want to do private sales in their area.

ARMSLIST - Gun Classifieds

[cdad]

Funny your misinterpretation of automatic weapons. No automatic weapon was used in this shooting. One must be in possession of a FFL level 3 at least, to possess an automatic weapon. That costs, if I remember correctly when we got our FFL,approximately $5,000 along with a much deeper background check.

Hate to make a correction here. But you do not have to be an FFL holder to have a fully automatic weapon. What you will have to do is pay the special tax stamp for a class III weapon. Its going to require a background check and signing off your local LEO.(Law Enforcement Officer). Tax stamps are required for a supressor as well as a SBR (short barrel rifle) and a fully automatic weapon. They may come to your home to do an inspection and make sure you have a place to keep the weapon. At a minimum those are the steps that will be taken for average joe/jane to get a class III weapon.

[J_9]

Thanks for the correction. It's been about 8 years since we got ours and I forgot. Glad you came along to clear that up.

[tomder55]

Clete ; It saddens me that you had to confront the issue so close and personal .
Alty's point is that there is time for a reasonable debate on remedies. When clouded in emotion ,good policy rarely follows . It is time for John 11 :35 . Then we can decide if the course you prescribe it best for our nation .

[paraclete]

Tom a more appropriate quote is John 11.37. Tom the time for debate is when the issue is fresh in the minds of the people, the idea that you can wait and have the debate months from now is a cop out. This is a tragedy, a terrible tragedy, and the correct course of action is to see it cannot happen again. Tom, I am a long way from there, but I am angry, angry at the stupidity that continues to allow such things to be perpetrated on a guillable community. You don't realise this, but you don't live in isolation, your attitudes are broadcast to the world and are taken up by some

[mogrann]

Don't know where to put this... I am fuming mad. I have no issue saying violence against Westboro should be allowed for this. They are going to picket where it happened. OMG.
I also read another school shooting was prevented today as people spoke up ahead of time. I will say this again. I don't care about right to bear arms, and health care. I just want this fixed NOW. What can we do as a society. (if this is the wrong spot sorry.) What do we do as people... how do we protect our children, grandkids etc. Don't tell me to get a gun as I would not qualify (mental illness and prior suicide attempts.) Also I don't know if I can trust myself with one as I still have down days. I have thought I would like to have one as I am scared of the world but realize it is not a good idea for me.